Brad Treliving needs to go

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by nik-

Good to great? We deserve to suffer with grading like this.

Grading like what?

I mean...toss out the 2 most recent drafts as they havent had time to prove anything one way or another.

The previous 5 though...i count 13 guys that have or will play in the NHL, a few more that have a chance and then a few that are out of the game or will be soon.

Some of those picks are great...others are good...some are complete misses.

Pretty similar to any decent team in the league over that span...no?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I'm not sure what the Flames are going to do, but if this situation doesn't warrant at the very least a strong consideration of a GM change, I'm not sure what would. The rebuild has fallen flat on its face and is ending in embarrassing fashion. The core players built around are going to have to now be traded for low return. You can make any excuse in the book, but the results are what matters. The team is now in a pretty precarious position, if the upcoming trades aren't good ones, it'll set them back years more. That is all under Treliving's watch.

I am sure it is being considered. But I am not convinced that ownership will draw the same conclusions as the most vocal segment of the fanbase.

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[Calgary4LIfe]

Flames have been one of the better drafting teams since 2008. I would not be so hasty to make a change. If you are really unhappy with how this team has drafted, it is probably because your expectations of a draft is not in the realm of reality. Just take a look at every team over the last 10-15 years. Are there better teams? Definitely, but there are a lot more worse teams, especially when accounting for draft position.


Heck, take a look at the Blackhawks - what I would think most consider to be a really good drafting team. They got Toews (3rd overall) and Kane (1st overall), but who else did they get? NOBODY those two drafts. That's 16 picks in total, selecting high in every round, plus 2 additional seconds.



The year before they drafted Hjalmarsson in the 4th round (awesome pick), but blew chunks on their 7th overall pick that year (Skille), and 2nd (Blunden). They made great picks having 8 extra picks (including three second rounders) in 2004, drafting a lot of good players that took their time to develop.



You can't just look at the Flames history and decide that they need to make a big change, without looking at who you think the actual good drafting organizations and what they have done - and don't forget to adjust for WHERE the picks were made, and how many picks they had.



Flames are easily a top third drafting team in the NHL, and it is one of the few bright spots organizationally. With the current team's direction flopping in the wind right now, Button (and the scouting department as a whole) is the LAST place I look to make a change right now.

[Textcritic]

Complaints about drafting are nitpicking. It's what happens when people are disappointed: they turn even successes into failures as a means to validate their anger.

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[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

I think it's very important, when evaluating Treliving, to separate two things: the decision to build around the core he inherited, and the roster moves that followed. In hindsight, I think the core not being good enough is the primary reason for the team's failure, but I'm not sure I disagree with the choice to build around them.


If you rewind the clock to the 2015 off-season, it certainly looked like a team on the rise. Giordano's coming off back-to-back Norris-calibre seasons cut short by injuries. Gaudreau looks like Patrick Kane v2. Monahan's taken a big leap. Brodie's come into his own as a top-pairing defenseman. Backlund's turning replacement-level wingers into top-6 scorers.


I think the biggest problem was Giordano: in 2015 he's 31, and every year we wait is a bigger risk of father time catching up to him. If we stay patient and build through the draft for 3-4 more years, is Giordano still an elite #1 at 35? With the power of hindsight, we can say yes - but how confident are you making that assertion in 2015? I think there was a reasonable urgency to try to compete during the Giordano Norris window.

It's the classic Canadian team move. "We have one great player, we can't afford to let his prime evaporate!!!"

TBF, it wasn't a crazy approach for a few years. At the time, all of the recent [1st time] cup winners did it by catching a new core group on the rise (< age 25, if not even younger) and with a few big moves to put them over the top.

The problem is that those teams had been building their asset base for like 7+ years...CGY had done it for 2-3.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Those are good examples. On the other hand, Burke was quite active his first year on the job in TO. Same with his first year in Anaheim.

I really don't see it as a choice of new players vs. new GM. IMO a new GM would make moves on the timeline that made the most sense to him or her. It's really about trusting their judgment vs. current approach.

ANA was in the summer coming out of the lockout. Everyone was active coming to terms with the new reality and catching up from a missed year. ANA had also been to the finals in '03.

His moves in TOR were disastrous.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Complaints about drafting are nitpicking. It's what happens when people are disappointed: they turn even successes into failures as a means to validate their anger.

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Complaints about drafting are definitely not nitpicking. It’s the single most important function for a team in the cap era


And ours hasn’t improved since Sutter who’s lamented for his poor drafting

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Flames have been one of the better drafting teams since 2008. I would not be so hasty to make a change. If you are really unhappy with how this team has drafted, it is probably because your expectations of a draft is not in the realm of reality. Just take a look at every team over the last 10-15 years. Are there better teams? Definitely, but there are a lot more worse teams, especially when accounting for draft position.


Heck, take a look at the Blackhawks - what I would think most consider to be a really good drafting team. They got Toews (3rd overall) and Kane (1st overall), but who else did they get? NOBODY those two drafts. That's 16 picks in total, selecting high in every round, plus 2 additional seconds.



The year before they drafted Hjalmarsson in the 4th round (awesome pick), but blew chunks on their 7th overall pick that year (Skille), and 2nd (Blunden). They made great picks having 8 extra picks (including three second rounders) in 2004, drafting a lot of good players that took their time to develop.



You can't just look at the Flames history and decide that they need to make a big change, without looking at who you think the actual good drafting organizations and what they have done - and don't forget to adjust for WHERE the picks were made, and how many picks they had.



Flames are easily a top third drafting team in the NHL, and it is one of the few bright spots organizationally. With the current team's direction flopping in the wind right now, Button (and the scouting department as a whole) is the LAST place I look to make a change right now.

Agreed. I think people are just getting caught up in the 'Fire Treliving' rabble rousing. Drafting and developing has been an organizational strength under his watch.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by neo45

Complaints about drafting are definitely not nitpicking. It’s the single most important function for a team in the cap era

And ours hasn’t improved since Sutter who’s lamented for his poor drafting

Well, that is just patently false. Gone are the low-ceiling reaches for Kris Chuckos, Eric Nystroms, and Greg Nemiszs. The Flames have most recently been able to do a lot more with a lot less—producing a steady stream of NHL talent with very few high picks. That is good drafting.

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[neo45]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Flames have been one of the better drafting teams since 2008.

2008 is a strange cutoff but I definitely disagree. The first round picks have way too many absolute misses during that time

Greg Nemisz
Tom Erixon
Sven
Jankowski
Monahan at 6
Poirier
Klimchuk
Bennett at 4
Tkachuk at 6
Valimaki
Pelletier
Zary


That’s pretty brutal. If this is “good to great” drafting then we have set the bar on the floor

[neo45]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Agreed. I think people are just getting caught up in the 'Fire Treliving' rabble rousing. Drafting and developing has been an organizational strength under his watch.

I think this is a CP myth that is absolute ripe with emotional biases and our drafting and development system has been poor under Treliving with a few gems


But it’s completely fair to say Sutter had poor overall drafting with a few gems as well

[1qqaaz]

It seems like the Flames draft better the more they defer to Button.
Once Sutter left, Feaster deferred to Button in 2011 (all 5 picks made the NHL).
Weisbrod then messed up the 2012 draft and possibly the 2013 drafts.
Burke messed up the 2014 draft.
The Flames have since deferred to Button since 2015, and drafting has been good.

At least it seems that way.

I also think drafting has been better than development. The Flames have drafted some good goalies that looked promising out of the gates. But they still haven't fully drafted + developed a goalie since Trevor Kidd in 1990.

Brodie was basically the only defenseman drafted between 2004 and 2014 or so who actually became a regular NHLer. The Flames have since improved at developing defensemen.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That's my point - there are hundreds of posts that say he should have done something but not what he should have done. I suspect because a deeper look says that nothing was really that possible unless there was a "blow it up" attempt earlier than most people would have thought.

I have dozens of posts in last years trade speculation thread suggesting something around Johnny for Cozens + RD. Lots of fits on both sides to balance with more pieces.

So I'll take a victory lap on being right, even if I can't be sure what a realistic return really would have been.

[Bonded]

Cannot quote but I think people are expecting too much from mid-late first rounders.Flames have hit on Gaudreau, Andersson, Mangiapane, and Dube in the later rounds. Compare their success to other NHL teams not what you think they should have.


Greg Nemisz - 25th pick. Only good players picked after him in the first round was Carlson.
Tom Erixon - 23rd. Palmieri was the only good player picked after him in the first round.
Sven - 13th. JT Miller and Armia were picked right after, so a bit of a miss but Sven was looking allstar after his draft.
Jankowski - Real travesty was trading down for him. Miss here for sure.
Monahan at 6 - Successful pick
Poirier - 22nd Best player after him was Burakovsky
Klimchuk - 28th. Literally nothing good until you get to Jarry at 41.
Bennett at 4 - Total bust but he was consensus top 4.
Tkachuk at 6 - Successful pick

Too early to call on these but Valimaki was looking like a great pick before this season.

Valimaki
Pelletier
Zary

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I have dozens of posts in last years trade speculation thread suggesting something around Johnny for Cozens + RD. Lots of fits on both sides to balance with more pieces.

So I'll take a victory lap on being right, even if I can't be sure what a realistic return really would have been.

Last years trade deadline, sure. And that trade makes sense if you are tearing it down (and you also need to do a whole lot more). But there are people here who are saying Treliving needed to (a) spot the problem and (b) fix it a long time before that. And the expectation is that this would somehow = present day success. point is, you can't spin gold out of straw that much.

[Flamesforever99]

I've been saying he's too cheap to make moves and no moves will be made this season and all of you lost your $###.

He's been doing nothing the last two seasons to make this team better and every time theres a big name available he cheaps out. Ducks offered Rackell for Bennett + 2nd and he was apparently offended. That means Bennets value is essentially a First and Brad still cheaped out.

I don't know what changes he'll make but if he's in charge of this rebuild/retool we're f#####.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Cannot quote but I think people are expecting too much from mid-late first rounders.Flames have hit on Gaudreau, Andersson, Mangiapane, and Dube in the later rounds. Compare their success to other NHL teams not what you think they should have...

They also drafted Fox and Kulak.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flamesforever99

I've been saying he's too cheap to make moves and no moves will be made this season and all of you lost your $###.

He's been doing nothing the last two seasons to make this team better and every time theres a big name available he cheaps out. Ducks offered Rackell for Bennett + 2nd and he was apparently offended. That means Bennets value is essentially a First and Brad still cheaped out.

I don't know what changes he'll make but if he's in charge of this rebuild/retool we're f#####.

So he spends too many draft picks and he's too cheap. He's too cheap but he paid Neal too much (which everyone agrees) and shouldn't have signed Markstrom and Tanev. He's too cheap but he was prepared to trade Brodie for a centre. Monahan was supposedly offered for Anderson.

I've never heard of this Bennett for Rackell trade.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Cannot quote but I think people are expecting too much from mid-late first rounders.Flames have hit on Gaudreau, Andersson, Mangiapane, and Dube in the later rounds. Compare their success to other NHL teams not what you think they should have.


Greg Nemisz - 25th pick. Only good players picked after him in the first round was Carlson.
Tom Erixon - 23rd. Palmieri was the only good player picked after him in the first round.
Sven - 13th. JT Miller and Armia were picked right after, so a bit of a miss but Sven was looking allstar after his draft.
Jankowski - Real travesty was trading down for him. Miss here for sure.
Monahan at 6 - Successful pick
Poirier - 22nd Best player after him was Burakovsky
Klimchuk - 28th. Literally nothing good until you get to Jarry at 41.
Bennett at 4 - Total bust but he was consensus top 4.
Tkachuk at 6 - Successful pick

Too early to call on these but Valimaki was looking like a great pick before this season.

Valimaki
Pelletier
Zary

2013 was sure a crap year to have multiple 1st rounders. Missing Burakovsky sucks, but not as bad as Boston missing with their 3 in 2015. Right ahead of Barzal, Conner, Chabot, and not far ahead of Boeser, Konecny, Roslovic.

[Bonded]

That is the ultimate example of going off the board and missing for Boston. That is some bad drafting.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bonded

That is the ultimate example of going off the board and missing for Boston. That is some bad drafting.

Lucky for Boston they already had a team of studs found in later rounds (or undrafted) - Marchand, Bergeron, Krug, Kreiji. Pasternak at 24OA.