Brad Treliving needs to go

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

I think Monahan is trash, he was drafted by Treliving. So who would you blame? The guy who picked the player or the player that was selected? Maybe the players are underperforming, maybe the coach sucks...but bottom line is that it's still Treliving's team. If someone is underperforming, ship em out. Don't need to keep repeating "trust the process", that's on par with Kevin Lowe saying he knows a thing or two about winning.

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Well he wasn't picked by BT so there's that.
But even if he was, who do you think he should have picked instead of him?

[flambers]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Different players?

I dont believe scorched earth is necessary either.

Flames at this point have to change the core, however this should of been done awhile ago

Key question, will he make the change or will he change the depth players?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I see a lot of this now. I didn’t then. And it still doesn’t answer who he was trading these guys to and for what.

Everyone generalizes. No one can get specific. It’s pretty easy to say “the team Treliving built sucks”. But no one can really say what he should have done, and when, and how. I get that success matters and he bears the consequences. If he’s fired, I’m not fussed. I don’t think any other GM does much better, if at all.

I mean how am I supposed to know who he was trading to and what we would have got when he should have traded some of these players almost two years ago?

The question is silly. No one knows, how could we know? What we do know is that it wasn't working, and it wasn't going to work so a new direction should have been taken before it was too late and we were backed into a corner. Like we are now.

[ricardodw]

How will the new GM (or Treliving if he stays) deal with Gio?

Flames are out of the the playoffs.

Gio recent Norris trophy winner has generated NO speculation on being a trade deadline addition to a contender. There would be no team that would offer a solid top-6 forward and a late first rounder like the Avs did to get 38 year old Ray Bourque,

No one would expect Gio to have his first dominate or even adequate playoff year.

Do the Flames believe that he will be a key to their resurgence next season? Is he in their long term plans?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

After the 2019 playoffs it was pretty apparent that this core had failed. So any of them, and multiple of them.

How many examples did Treliving need to realize that this wasn't going to work? People here were seeing it and we're just fans. Did he have to wait until it was totally 100% obvious? He needed it to be that blatant? Now their trade values are essentially half.

I think the hope was that the 2019 playoffs was that teaching moment for the club that would show them what it would take to win.
And then 2020 gets blown up by COVID.
As Bingo has pointed out, there hasn't been as much opportunity to make changes to the core than some perceive.
You know I've been down on the forwards for some time, but I can understand why coming off a season where they had the 2nd most points in the league, they wanted to see if the group was going to mature further.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by nik-

I mean how am I supposed to know who he was trading to and what we would have got when he should have traded some of these players almost two years ago?

The question is silly. No one knows, how could we know? What we do know is that it wasn't working, and it wasn't going to work so a new direction should have been taken before it was too late and we were backed into a corner. Like we are now.

The question is far from silly. You only say this because you want to complain without actually knowing what you are complaining about. And please, show me the 2019 post where you said “this isn’t working - we need to trade Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk and Gio”.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Still not putting the blame on the actual people not executing on the ice.

Im pretty sure just a mere 5 weeks ago i could go back and find refrain after refrain that would go something like

"Its ownerships fault for cheaping out on coaching"

"if theses guys had an elite coach, they would realize their potential"

"Ward/Peters/Gulutzan arent even AHL level coaches".

Yet, they are worse than ever with that addressed.

Again...multiple coaches....same thing...but you know, put the blame upstairs.


Sure, get rid of BT, Conroy, Pascall, whomever I fully understand that argument but it wont make a lick of difference without changing personnel on the ice.

Put it this way, which scenario do you think would produce better results?

Change the GM but bring back the same group?

or

Change a chunk of the group and come back under the existing GM?

Answer that honestly and its obvious where the biggest issues lie.

I get that some, maybe most will say, change both.

The issue there is that any new guy (outside the org anyhow) will need time to get into his position and do his own evaluation of what he has to work with, what he sees fits his vision, and then identifying others around the league he can realistically obtain via trade with the guys he decides are no longer pieces here. That would take months if they did it now. Longer if they make the change after the season.

Maybe there is someone whom they have already contacted and asked to be ready in case they make a change who has that kind of grasp on the team that would shorten those timelines?


So realistically, we are at the point of changes in the GM spot or on the actual roster, but not likely both unless its to bring someone in to blow it up and start over. That simply is not happening even if it may be the right thing to do.

Two things why player change is WAY more likely

1) BT in year 1 of his new deal

2) New coach hired a month ago on a 3 year deal

The other solution is to fire BT and let Sutter GM the team until such a time he has re-shaped the roster in his image. You game for that?

Or

Murray Edwards and fellow owners decide that they are willing to eat millions and millions of existing contracts, hire more people to replace those fired for millions and millions more, blow up the team to make them very bad coming off an entire calendar year of minimal revenues, all while planning to move to a new stadium in 3 years.

If it was my money I would try to determine who the individual was that signed all the wrong people that has forced me to pay people to do nothing. I would get rid of that person, even if I had to pay them, because I would realize that that person would continue to put me in that situation going forward where I had to pay people to do nothing. I would then hire a new person, ask them not to make as many dumb moves as the previous guy, and tell them they could make whatever changes they wanted to the roster after they explained to me their 5 year plan to make us competitive for a Stanley Cup.

But that is just me. They could also keep the individual who has signed people that they have ended up paying to do nothing and hope that it does not happen in the future.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

How will the new GM (or Treliving if he stays) deal with Gio?

Flames are out of the the playoffs.

Gio recent Norris trophy winner has generated NO speculation on being a trade deadline addition to a contender. There would be no team that would offer a solid top-6 forward and a late first rounder like the Avs did to get 38 year old Ray Bourque,

No one would expect Gio to have his first dominate or even adequate playoff year.

Do the Flames believe that he will be a key to their resurgence next season? Is he in their long term plans?

Flames have missed their window with their captain, he should be moved for sure if any teams inquire

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I wouldn't waste your energy arguing against a scenario that exactly no one is suggesting.

It's entirely a debate about who should be the one making the necessary changes.

Again, as we sit today and dealing in the reality of everything involved, do you want the GM changed or the players changed, since it is unlikely, very unlikely, you are getting both?

Which one would have a bigger impact in the teams play?

Simple question in a very convoluted discussion for sure, but one that i believe it all boils down too....at least for now.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The question is far from silly. You only say this because you want to complain without actually knowing what you are complaining about. And please, show me the 2019 post where you said “this isn’t working - we need to trade Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk and Gio”.

Can you get to the core of why you're arguing this path? What is your stance? Is this question supposed to be some absolution of the GM's performance because a fan can't say who they would have traded to and for what?

I know you think you've got some kind of gotcha moment here, but it's honestly just silly.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by nik-

After the 2019 playoffs it was pretty apparent that this core had failed. So any of them, and multiple of them.

How many examples did Treliving need to realize that this wasn't going to work? People here were seeing it and we're just fans. Did he have to wait until it was totally 100% obvious? He needed it to be that blatant? Now their trade values are essentially half.

I don't believe that fans see nearly as much as they believe that they do. We are all also highly prone to confirmation biases through which we construct narratives in hindsight.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The question is far from silly. You only say this because you want to complain without actually knowing what you are complaining about. And please, show me the 2019 post where you said “this isn’t working - we need to trade Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk and Gio”.

look at the players the Flames dumped and replaced in 2006 after their 2004 exceeded expectations year and playoff run. Selling high made them into an expected playoff team for 5 years

[flambers]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Again, as we sit today and dealing in the reality of everything involved, do you want the GM changed or the players changed, since it is unlikely, very unlikely, you are getting both?

Which one would have a bigger impact in the teams play?

Simple question in a very convoluted discussion for sure, but one that i believe it all boils down too....at least for now.

My view, Gm should be the 1st move...

Hire the appropriate GM and let the new GM make the offseason moves

Current plan has not worked,

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think the hope was that the 2019 playoffs was that teaching moment for the club that would show them what it would take to win.
And then 2020 gets blown up by COVID.
As Bingo has pointed out, there hasn't been as much opportunity to make changes to the core than some perceive.
You know I've been down on the forwards for some time, but I can understand why coming off a season where they had the 2nd most points in the league, they wanted to see if the group was going to mature further.

I get that stance if it's in a vacuum, but 2019 was more of an affirmation of previous results. Including prominent displays of the main issues with the team, IE: the best players just not showing up at all and not being able to step up when it matters. The fizzling in the latter half of the season and the playoffs was the standard, the 2/3rds of the season where we had career highs from multiple players was the aberration.

He gambled on that and lost huge. There's a price for that. For the team it's an incredibly bad situation. For Treliving it should be his job.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by nik-

Can you get to the core of why you're arguing this path? What is your stance? Is this question supposed to be some absolution of the GM's performance because a fan can't say who they would have traded to and for what?

I know you think you've got some kind of gotcha moment here, but it's honestly just silly.

Absolution - no. Check my vote in the poll. I just dislike people complaining who do so disingenuously, and act as if there was an obvious path that was better at the time. There’s no “gotcha”. There’s just a question for people who make these claims.

“It was obvious the team wasn’t good enough after 2019 and had Treliving changed the team it would have been better”

“OK, what changes should Treliving have made - who should have been acquired, who should have been let go”

“I don’t know - I just know he didn’t do it”.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

I think Monahan is trash, he was drafted by Treliving. So who would you blame? The guy who picked the player or the player that was selected? Maybe the players are underperforming, maybe the coach sucks...but bottom line is that it's still Treliving's team. If someone is underperforming, ship em out. Don't need to keep repeating "trust the process", that's on par with Kevin Lowe saying he knows a thing or two about winning.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

swing and a miss.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I see a lot of this now. I didn’t then. And it still doesn’t answer who he was trading these guys to and for what.

Everyone generalizes. No one can get specific. It’s pretty easy to say “the team Treliving built sucks”. But no one can really say what he should have done, and when, and how. I get that success matters and he bears the consequences. If he’s fired, I’m not fussed. I don’t think any other GM does much better, if at all.

Respectfully there are several hundred posts in this thread addressing exactly this.

It's hard to say what trade should have been made since that requires knowledge we don't have. But it's pretty easy to point out the bad moves and missed opportunities and that has been done ad nauseum.

Wasted assets on the goalie carousel
Wasted assets on meaningless deadline acquisitions
Too many examples of poor evaluation of NHL talent acquired in trades and UFA signings
Poor coaching hires
Failure to address the weakest part of the team, forward skill

I mean if nothing else, give me back the picks in the Hamonic, Lazar and Elliott trades and package them to move up in the draft. Or just use the picks. Or acquire something else

This is not to say he hasn't done good things, and that luck plays a role but I don't agree that people aren't pointing out specifics of what went wrong. And while lots of these deals were questionable at the time, IMO it's not unfair to use hindsight to evaluate any executive. That's life.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by flambers

Flames at this point have to change the core, however this should of been done awhile ago

Key question, will he make the change or will he change the depth players?

Oh there will be major changes...no question.

I see no way both of Monahan(not as probable) and Gaudreau(most likely) are here next year, I can see a scenario with Seattle that Backlund ends up there....and i also believe one of Hanifin or Andersson is gone as well.

Whoever is in charge will have a mandate to do so IMO.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Oh there will be major changes...no question.

I see no way both of Monahan(not as probable) and Gaudreau(most likely) are here next year, I can see a scenario with Seattle that Backlund ends up there....and i also believe one of Hanifin or Andersson is gone as well.

Whoever is in charge will have a mandate to do so IMO.

Monahan really hinges on what's going on with him. If there's an injury that can be corrected, then you would be foolish to trade him now at his lowest value. If however the player is just declining or has injuries that can't be corrected - get what you can.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Again, as we sit today and dealing in the reality of everything involved, do you want the GM changed or the players changed, since it is unlikely, very unlikely, you are getting both?

Which one would have a bigger impact in the teams play?

Simple question in a very convoluted discussion for sure, but one that i believe it all boils down too....at least for now.

Why would a new GM bring back the same players?