Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Go Back   Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community > Event Forums > COVID-19 Forum

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-02-2021, 06:10 PM   #1381
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
Honestly dude, your consistent hand-wringing, panic-induced need to latch on to every bit of negatively or anything you can spin towards a negative is tiring.

Everything that confirms your bias is a real problem, right now. "SHOULDN'T we be concerned???"

Everything that would force you to think remotely critically and question your bias in the slightest possible way is spin, untrustworthy, the unknown.

Some of us are looking at this in a reasonable, calm, and critical matter. You can't seem to, and that's ok, but please stop being absolutely shocked that people aren't concerned over the same things as you, especially when your concerns have failed to come to fruition again, and again, and again, and again, and you come in with the "I'm not above admitting when I was wrong" schtick, which is great, but you could also take a lesson from what the world is teaching you instead of cycling back repeatedly. You could also voice a concern and then, you know... listen to the responses from people clearly smarter than you on the subject (not me) and become more informed? Less reactionary? No, just keep waving your hands? Ok.

You're panicked because vaccines in the amount we've administered over the past week expire in a month? That seems reasonable to you? Ok man, that's totally fine. But if you're going to be that way, lean into it and stop pretending you're smart and reasonable. It's ok to be emotional and reactionary, it's ok to feel panic, I'm sure everyone has been there. But you'll get a lot more sympathy if you stop acting like you're the only one who can see the truth. You're starting to sound and act like a QAnon follower at this point.
This is the most hysterical post in this thread.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 06:13 PM   #1382
chemgear
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
It's hilarious to me how many on here have discredited Attaran when his views on lockdown align far more with their opinions than almost anything else he has said to criticize Canadian vaccine procurement.
The "Excellent! Death to Canadians that I don't like" part?

Is this that guy?
chemgear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 06:15 PM   #1383
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
This is the most hysterical post in this thread.
I guess the resident clown would be the expert on that.
PepsiFree is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2021, 06:25 PM   #1384
jammies
Basement Chicken Choker
 
jammies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In a land without pants, or war, or want. But mostly we care about the pants.
Exp:
Default

I come in here occasionally, read peter, laugh incredulously and leave. I'm happy he has his safe space where he can spin his reality-free content without fear of censorship.

Can some moderator at least change his custom title to "WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!!!"?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic View Post
For all people's frustration and complaints about Ward, he is NOT getting replaced at any point during this season.
jammies is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to jammies For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2021, 06:59 PM   #1385
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jammies View Post
I come in here occasionally, read peter, laugh incredulously and leave. I'm happy he has his safe space where he can spin his reality-free content without fear of censorship.

Can some moderator at least change his custom title to "WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!!!"?
I’m glad you leave your cave, occasionally.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 07:01 PM   #1386
opendoor
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
It's hilarious to me how many on here have discredited Attaran when his views on lockdown align far more with their opinions than almost anything else he has said to criticize Canadian vaccine procurement.
Who cares about his views? His problem is he has no problem bending the truth or spouting half truths in order to support his opinions. That's intellectually dishonest.

Just one example off the top of my head; he has said repeatedly that the UK built its vaccine production from scratch in 2020. And that at the start of last year Canada had more bioreactor capacity in its NRC facility than the UK had in its production facilities for COVID vaccines. And that the NRC facility had a history of producing adenovirus vaccines. Technically those things are more or less true (though the UK building "from scratch" is a gross mischaracterization). But what he's saying is only relevant to producing COVID vaccines if you ignore the following:

-the UK's primary facility (Oxbox) started construction in 2018, and was initially planned to have 4 production lines and 2 fill/finish lines producing doses in early to mid 2020.
-once the pandemic hit, 3 of the production lines and 1 fill/finish line were adjusted to handle COVID vaccine production
-the facility received MHRA certification in May 2020 and they were producing doses by the fall

So that's a 2.5 year timeline to get the facility going and producing doses (and they're still ramping up production now). They certainly didn't build anything "from scratch" in 2020 nor was it something Canada could have done starting in the spring of 2020 in any kind of timeline that would've made a difference.

And regarding the NRC facility that he keeps saying could have been producing doses (I think he said 60M a year on the news a while ago):

-the NRC facility has never produced vaccines for human use
-the adenovirus vaccine that Attaran references that facility producing is a solid bait vaccine designed for wild animals, not an injectable vaccine for humans
-the NRC facility was not certified as a certified Good Manufacturing Practices facility, which is a prerequisite for producing any medicine for human consumption
-the existing facility, due to its age, was not capable of meeting cGMP standards without being completely gutted and rebuilt.
-even when rebuilt, its production would have been very minimal (a few hundred thousand doses a month), because there's a lot more that goes into vaccine production than bioreactor capacity.

So taking those things together, the notion that Canada could've been producing vaccines like the UK is but simply aren't because the government didn't want to is patently ridiculous. And this information is all publicly and easily available, so I can only assume that he knows these things too, but ignores them because they contradict his narrative.

And that doesn't even get into him essentially wishing death on Albertans for political reasons.
opendoor is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to opendoor For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2021, 07:06 PM   #1387
looooob
Franchise Player
 
looooob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Who cares about his views? His problem is he has no problem bending the truth or spouting half truths in order to support his opinions. That's intellectually dishonest.

.
in other words he's the Bruce Dowbiggin of the COVID pandemic
looooob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 08:30 PM   #1388
Street Pharmacist
Franchise Player
 
Street Pharmacist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kamloops
Exp:
Default

The pace here in BC isn't the issue, but I'm hoping they've thought through the AZ vaccine a bit. If they don't get it until next week, that leaves 3 weeks to administer. It doesn't fit with their current system though as they're only set up to start accepting appointments starting March 15th, and that's for people over 90 who wouldn't be getting the AZ vaccine. How do you rapidly start a new system to go patallel with their current roll out?

Hopefully they had contingency plans for this
Street Pharmacist is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Street Pharmacist For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2021, 08:33 PM   #1389
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Sounds like the provinces can request how much of this vaccinate they want. So if BC can't handle it, Alberta will surly snap it up. If they don't, all Kenney's bellyaching is for naught.
__________________
Air Canada - We're not happy until you're not happy.
Telus - Almost as bad as Winnipeg.
Calgary Roads Dept - Ya, we'll get to that.
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Fuzz For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2021, 08:46 PM   #1390
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist View Post
The pace here in BC isn't the issue, but I'm hoping they've thought through the AZ vaccine a bit. If they don't get it until next week, that leaves 3 weeks to administer. It doesn't fit with their current system though as they're only set up to start accepting appointments starting March 15th, and that's for people over 90 who wouldn't be getting the AZ vaccine. How do you rapidly start a new system to go patallel with their current roll out?

Hopefully they had contingency plans for this
I’m not too worried. On December 14th Canada injected the first Pfizer vaccine. By January 14th they had injected 310k doses and that was with doses slowly trickling in. Here we are going to start with 300k.

So if we can have the same ramp up pace as the 1st vaccines it will be fine. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them use pharmacists earlier given the normal storage temps for AZ.

Last edited by GGG; 03-02-2021 at 09:58 PM.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 09:34 PM   #1391
opendoor
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist View Post
The pace here in BC isn't the issue, but I'm hoping they've thought through the AZ vaccine a bit. If they don't get it until next week, that leaves 3 weeks to administer. It doesn't fit with their current system though as they're only set up to start accepting appointments starting March 15th, and that's for people over 90 who wouldn't be getting the AZ vaccine. How do you rapidly start a new system to go patallel with their current roll out?

Hopefully they had contingency plans for this
Yeah, reading between the lines of what they've been saying, it sounds like they might be getting caught a bit flat-footed on this. They haven't (publicly at least) identified who these are going to go to or set up any kind of system for making appointments.

But it's not like this came out of nowhere. 6 weeks ago Verity Pharmaceuticals applied for approval to sell Serum Institute doses in Canada, 4 weeks ago it was revealed we were getting 1.9M COVAX doses (including some possibly in Q1), and 2 weeks ago it was announced that the Serum Institute would be shipping doses to Canada, likely in early March. The short shelf life is a bit of a curveball, but the government really should have been prepared to administer these as soon as it was approved.

Who knows, maybe they have something planned and it'll go fine. I guess with the simpler handling requirements, they could do more mobile clinics, like taking 1K doses to a meat processing plant or setting up a clinic for teachers or something. Or maybe they'll offer them to ancillary health workers who might not be getting prioritized with Pfizer and Moderna doses and administer them at their workplaces.
opendoor is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to opendoor For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2021, 10:02 PM   #1392
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Who cares about his views? His problem is he has no problem bending the truth or spouting half truths in order to support his opinions. That's intellectually dishonest.

Just one example off the top of my head; he has said repeatedly that the UK built its vaccine production from scratch in 2020. And that at the start of last year Canada had more bioreactor capacity in its NRC facility than the UK had in its production facilities for COVID vaccines. And that the NRC facility had a history of producing adenovirus vaccines. Technically those things are more or less true (though the UK building "from scratch" is a gross mischaracterization). But what he's saying is only relevant to producing COVID vaccines if you ignore the following:

-the UK's primary facility (Oxbox) started construction in 2018, and was initially planned to have 4 production lines and 2 fill/finish lines producing doses in early to mid 2020.
-once the pandemic hit, 3 of the production lines and 1 fill/finish line were adjusted to handle COVID vaccine production
-the facility received MHRA certification in May 2020 and they were producing doses by the fall

So that's a 2.5 year timeline to get the facility going and producing doses (and they're still ramping up production now). They certainly didn't build anything "from scratch" in 2020 nor was it something Canada could have done starting in the spring of 2020 in any kind of timeline that would've made a difference.

And regarding the NRC facility that he keeps saying could have been producing doses (I think he said 60M a year on the news a while ago):

-the NRC facility has never produced vaccines for human use
-the adenovirus vaccine that Attaran references that facility producing is a solid bait vaccine designed for wild animals, not an injectable vaccine for humans
-the NRC facility was not certified as a certified Good Manufacturing Practices facility, which is a prerequisite for producing any medicine for human consumption
-the existing facility, due to its age, was not capable of meeting cGMP standards without being completely gutted and rebuilt.
-even when rebuilt, its production would have been very minimal (a few hundred thousand doses a month), because there's a lot more that goes into vaccine production than bioreactor capacity.

So taking those things together, the notion that Canada could've been producing vaccines like the UK is but simply aren't because the government didn't want to is patently ridiculous. And this information is all publicly and easily available, so I can only assume that he knows these things too, but ignores them because they contradict his narrative.

And that doesn't even get into him essentially wishing death on Albertans for political reasons.
I greatly admire your posts and don't think I don't appreciate all that you've brought to the table.

I may be a bit extreme in my criticism, but there is nothing panicky about my position. Even though things will probably work out for us, you have to admit that our vaccine procurement has been a bit sketchy, and that our overall federal COVID-19 response has been pretty terrible.

Personally, I refuse to be satisfied with letting the bastards get away with it when this is all over.

And you damn well better believe that if some goddam stupid cop won't take AZ here in BC, I will be in line, and you will hear about it here first.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 10:23 PM   #1393
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
I greatly admire your posts and don't think I don't appreciate all that you've brought to the table.

I may be a bit extreme in my criticism, but there is nothing panicky about my position. Even though things will probably work out for us, you have to admit that our vaccine procurement has been a bit sketchy, and that our overall federal COVID-19 response has been pretty terrible.

Personally, I refuse to be satisfied with letting the bastards get away with it when this is all over.

And you damn well better believe that if some goddam stupid cop won't take AZ here in BC, I will be in line, and you will hear about it here first.
So if the federal government has the opportunity to buy vaccine that expires in one month what should be the process to not make you feel like it is “sketchy”
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 10:26 PM   #1394
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
So if the federal government has the opportunity to buy vaccine that expires in one month what should be the process to not make you feel like it is “sketchy”
I would be curious as to the reasons behind the purchase - is it expediency or desperation?
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 10:27 PM   #1395
GeoffSK
Backup Goalie
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Exp:
Default

Not sure people are worried about the expiry date. In SK we run out of vaccine within 4 days of shipment. We hit 6000 in a day once this past week. I believe SK will get 14,000ish pfizer this week and 15000ish Astrazeneca. This will he biggest weekly shipment, 19000ish last week. At 4250ish a day we will be out again before the next shipment.

The only issue is deciding who to give the Astrazenica too. That is the only thing that will delay the rollout. Not sure if we are prepared to give it to under 65 year olds.

Pretty much all provinces are dishing them out as fast as they receive them.

Last edited by GeoffSK; 03-02-2021 at 10:32 PM.
GeoffSK is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to GeoffSK For This Useful Post:
GGG
Old 03-02-2021, 10:55 PM   #1396
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
I would be curious as to the reasons behind the purchase - is it expediency or desperation?
I don’t think that is an answer to the question I asked.

Also I am not sure I see a difference between expediency or desperation outside of arbitrary motives pundits will apply after the fact.

We bought it because Kenny and Ford are slamming us on a daily basis so we intentionally bought almost expired vaccine to set them up for failure when they don’t inject it in time would be the worst possible reason. But even if that is the government plan it would be beneficial and a win for Canada.

Last edited by GGG; 03-02-2021 at 10:59 PM.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 11:36 PM   #1397
opendoor
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
I greatly admire your posts and don't think I don't appreciate all that you've brought to the table.

I may be a bit extreme in my criticism, but there is nothing panicky about my position. Even though things will probably work out for us, you have to admit that our vaccine procurement has been a bit sketchy, and that our overall federal COVID-19 response has been pretty terrible.

Personally, I refuse to be satisfied with letting the bastards get away with it when this is all over.

And you damn well better believe that if some goddam stupid cop won't take AZ here in BC, I will be in line, and you will hear about it here first.
Fair enough, I just think it's important to not apply a political lens to what is largely a technical problem (and I'm no fan of this federal government). There are a ton of structural factors working against Canada in terms of getting access to vaccines, most of which can't be overcome in a year or two. And any criticism that doesn't live within that reality is basically just noise. Comparing our early rollout to the US's for instance? You might as well be complaining that Vancouver isn't as sunny as LA in the winter.

That's not to say the government has been perfect, not by any means. Their messaging has generally been bad and they've been way too vague. But then, I'm not sure I blame them for being vague given what we've seen over the past few months. The most heat they've taken since the rollout started was when they got extremely transparent with delivery numbers (more so than almost any government I'm aware of), and then those were temporarily reduced due to factors beyond Canada's control and people freaked out.

In terms of procuring vaccines, I think there's room for reasonable criticism. Given the lack of domestic capacity, they should've basically been the first country to be negotiating with these companies and they should've been throwing money at them. So they didn't meet that standard, but they weren't far off. Canada was the 2nd country to sign with Moderna, and the 3rd to sign with Pfizer and Johnson & Johnson. Pfizer, I think you could make a case for Canada being able to get more doses if they acted faster, so that's a fair criticism; I think they definitely should've been more aggressive there. But with Moderna and Johnson & Johnson, I just don't see it. The US was always getting 85-90% of Moderna's Q1 production so it was just going to be table scraps for the rest of the world until April. And J&J is similar in that they're primarily US-produced to start.

For AstraZeneca, maybe Canada could've acted earlier, but that's a bit of a different situation due to how they're manufacturing doses. AstraZeneca isn't a vaccine producer; so prior to Canada's deal, every agreement they made was for domestic production where countries and/or AstraZeneca would contract out the manufacturing to local producers (Oxford Biomedica + Cobra Biologics in the UK, Emergent BioSolutions in the US, Novasep and others in the EU, the Serum Institute in India, CSL in Australia, Fiocruz in Brazil, etc.). So Canada ended up being the 1st country in the world to sign an agreement with them that wasn't a licensing deal for domestic production. And that meant that AstraZeneca likely had to sort out its production in other countries in order to sell doses to non-producing countries like Canada, hence the delay and the lack of firm guarantees about schedule. And likely why Canada is buying doses at the last minute from India.

The other reason I might give Canada (the country as a whole, not necessarily the federal government) a bit of a pass on any deficiencies in vaccine rollout is how much lower our mortality has been than our higher vaccinated peer nations. If Canada continued its current 7-day average mortality indefinitely, it would take 9 months to get to where Germany is now, over 2 years to get to where France is, nearly 3 years to match the US, and almost 3.5 years to catch up to the UK. So stressing out about being a few weeks behind the EU isn't really worth the energy. Particularly when we've seen in Israel that high vaccination doesn't simply stop the pandemic on a dime, it just slows transmission (which will stop it eventually). So the US might be 2 months ahead of us in vaccinations, but they're also way behind us in terms of reducing infections and mortality. So while they'll finish vaccinations sooner, I'll be surprised if they don't continue to have a higher mortality rate than Canada over the next 6 months.
opendoor is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to opendoor For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2021, 08:04 AM   #1398
GordonBlue
First Line Centre
 
GordonBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Alberta
Exp:
Default

my mom (over 80) is refusing to get vaccinated. "I just haven't decided yet"
I'm having a hard time getting a straight answer about why.

I think she's listening to bad advice/getting wrong information and is just not telling me.

god dammit.
GordonBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 08:16 AM   #1399
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonBlue View Post
my mom (over 80) is refusing to get vaccinated. "I just haven't decided yet"
I'm having a hard time getting a straight answer about why.

I think she's listening to bad advice/getting wrong information and is just not telling me.

god dammit.
My wife's Omma said she wasn't going to get it, she's about 85? My wife and her uncle called and said they would not be able to see her again until she got it. If she wanted to see anyone in the family, she would need to have it. That changed her mind really quickly.
__________________
Air Canada - We're not happy until you're not happy.
Telus - Almost as bad as Winnipeg.
Calgary Roads Dept - Ya, we'll get to that.
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Fuzz For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2021, 10:47 AM   #1400
darockwilder
Scoring Winger
 
darockwilder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Exp:
Default

Pardon my stupidity, but if these vaccines are supposed to expire in a month (which should put it right at the start of April) and they have 6 month shelf life does that mean they were manufactured at the start of October? Wouldn't the "old stock" have been shipped out first?
__________________
Sent from an adult man under a dumpster
darockwilder is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:23 PM.

Calgary Flames
2019-20




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021