Colten Bushie murder trial

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Cuz

At some point, we need to stop feeling sorry for natives as showing compassion ends up giving natives a learned helplessness. Further, tribe leaders need to take a good look in the mirror as their selfishness (for some) is a contributing factor to the deplorable conditions on many reserves.

Wait, anything to back this up? That doesn't seem like would be right.

[David Struch]

The judge is this case was Martel Popescul... who tried to stop the inquiry of white supremacist Carney Nerland who killed Leo LaChance.

[Cuz]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Wait, anything to back this up? That doesn't seem like would be right.

I don't have anything to back that up, it is simply my opinion from what I observe in my job (LRT driver). Also, I believe in the old adage, give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime.

[TheIronMaiden]

My two take always:

Solutions are impossible when lives are lost.

Racial tensions are alive and well in Canada.

Now a community has to pick up the pieces and move on, with tensions looming large, and no solution in sight.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by David Struch

The judge is this case was Martel Popescul... who tried to stop the inquiry of white supremacist Carney Nerland who killed Leo LaChance.

Could you post some links please? All I can find are facebook posts stating the same thing. Cheers.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by icecube

Around a third of the population around the North Battleford area is indigenous. The verdict came from an all white jury. The defence used a peremptory challenge on every single visibly indigenous looking person during jury selection.

Is this actually true? That it was an all white dury?

I ask because all I could find was this where there were an initial pool of 750 people summoned as potential jurors.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskat...shie-1.4504633

Obviously probably much lower than that number would probably have attended and according to the article Lawyers can only use a peremptory challenge up to a maximum of 12 times.

Begs the question how would you finish up with an all white jury with a maximum of twelve challenges?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

Under Canadian law, you are allowed to use lethal force against someone who is stealing your property when life threatening danger is also present.

In this case, he believed that his wife had been run over by people who were there trying to steal his truck and quad. He fired warning shots and never intentionally pointed a firearm at anyone, let alone one that he thought was loaded.

Most of that is far from established fact. First off, his defense never even argued that he felt he was in life threatening danger because there's no evidence of that. His defense was that he experienced a hang fire, which introduced a long delay between pulling the trigger and the bullet firing. But for that to be true, the following would've had to happen based on the trial testimony:

-he loaded 3 bullets while thinking he only loaded 2
-he pulled the trigger 3 times to fire 2 warning shots
-the 3rd bullet's firing was delayed the exact length of time it took him to walk from where he fired the shots up to the vehicle.
-despite him saying he wanted the trespassers to leave, he reached into the SUV to take their keys to prevent them from leaving
-at the exact moment he was leaning into the vehicle the gun went off while it was pointed at the passenger's head

To me that's exceedingly implausible. The fact that his lawyer tried to use a Reddit discussion as evidence of hang fire being a common occurrence says a lot about the nature of the defense. Gun experts agreed that this is a very rare event and when it does happen, the delay is quite short. To me it sounds like a Hail Mary defense.

[David Struch]

But when seven officers went to Red Pheasant First Nation to inform his mother and siblings of his death, they surrounded and searched the family's trailer.

At one point, according to Gibbs' summary of the accounts provided by Boushie's family and officers, after having been told her son was dead, Boushie's mother, Debbie Baptiste, fell to the floor of her front porch.

After being taken inside the house, she fell again, prompting a male officer to tell her to "get it together" and then ask "'Have you been drinking?'" ​

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/colten-boushie-investigation-rcmp-1.4383816

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I do wonder how this thread would be going if it was a African-American killed by a white farmer in Alabama.

It would be different again if it was drunk red necks driving around a first nations community with a loaded gun and trying to steal stuff.

The trick is to not subscribe hero/victim us/them status to people based on group identities. That's what the courts try to do. And it's what the rest of us should be trying to do also.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Most of that is far from established fact. First off, his defense never even argued that he felt he was in life threatening danger because there's no evidence of that. His defense was that he experienced a hang fire, which introduced a long delay between pulling the trigger and the bullet firing. But for that to be true, the following would've had to happen based on the trial testimony:

-he loaded 3 bullets while thinking he only loaded 2
-he pulled the trigger 3 times to fire 2 warning shots
-the 3rd bullet's firing was delayed the exact length of time it took him to walk from where he fired the shots up to the vehicle.
-despite him saying he wanted the trespassers to leave, he reached into the SUV to take their keys to prevent them from leaving
-at the exact moment he was leaning into the vehicle the gun went off while it was pointed at the passenger's head

To me that's exceedingly implausible. The fact that his lawyer tried to use a Reddit discussion as evidence of hang fire being a common occurrence says a lot about the nature of the defense. Gun experts agreed that this is a very rare event and when it does happen, the delay is quite short. To me it sounds like a Hail Mary defense.

So just a few things to add so that it lends a little more credence to his defense.

1) There was an imperfection discovered in the casing that he claimed was a hangfire.
2) They tested his gun and it had a hangfire after the 33rd shot I believe (brought up at trial).
3) He used old soviet military surplus ammo, which could also have contributed to issues.
4) It was a Tokarov. Not the gun I would trust my life with.

I do agree it is still pretty rare that this exact circumstance would happen.

[meritmat]

Ok folks I'm a white farmer, not much diff from Gerald other then I doubt live by a reserve.

Heres the deal.

You drive into my yard, try to steal my stuff, run into my side swipe my vehicle. Start assaulting my wife your going to have a gun pointed at you. I have followed this trail from the beginning. Its sad a young person lost his life. But a man was just defending his castle.

It is a crying shame how CBC has made the farmer out to be a villain. That day Gerald and his son were out fixing fence, just trying to make a living, these kids have been out drinking at a lake. They were driving around drunk the whole time, they got a flat tire, they drove on the rim to an another farm 15km away and tried stealing a truck, they used a guns butt to try and smash out a window. When they could not get the truck going, they left and drove on the rim to Gerald Stanley farm. Tried the same thing. Sadly one lost his life over it.

One thing to think about, since a lot of us farmers live in the middle of no were, your looking 1-2 hours response time for the RCMP to get there. The cops are not always going to be there in the nick of time.

Also if this was a bunch of drunk/stoned white kids, would this even make the news?

And of course JT is these pandering to the Natives because hey it will buy votes..

Put your self in Geralds shoes, what would you do?


Sorry for typos

[icecube]

According to the sister of one of the girls in the car, the wife got assaulted by the two girls right after Boushie was shot because she allegedly said something along the lines of "that's what you get for trespassing".

This is hearsay based on a Facebook post but it was posted right around the day the shooting happened. Her name was Lacey Wuttunee IIRC.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by icecube

According to the sister of one of the girls in the car, the wife got assaulted by the two girls right after Boushie was shot because she allegedly said something along the lines of "that's what you get for trespassing".

This is hearsay based on a Facebook post but it was posted right around the day the shooting happened. Her name was Lacey Wuttunee IIRC.

Seems credible.

[meritmat]

There testimony was all over the place. The defences proved they changed there story. The testimony from the 4 youths in the car was one of the biggest reasons Gerald got off

[meritmat]

Also remember all 5 of them were very drunk.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Seems credible.

Just found it in the globe and mail too.

At the preliminary inquiry in 2017, Ms. Jackson testified that Leesa Stanley, Mr. Stanley's wife, said, in the moments after Mr. Boushie was shot, "That is what you get for trespassing." The comment was not raised at trial, but it remains particularly inflammatory to some in Mr. Boushie's family"

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle37921120/

[taco.vidal]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Most of that is far from established fact. First off, his defense never even argued that he felt he was in life threatening danger because there's no evidence of that. His defense was that he experienced a hang fire, which introduced a long delay between pulling the trigger and the bullet firing. But for that to be true, the following would've had to happen based on the trial testimony:

-he loaded 3 bullets while thinking he only loaded 2
-he pulled the trigger 3 times to fire 2 warning shots
-the 3rd bullet's firing was delayed the exact length of time it took him to walk from where he fired the shots up to the vehicle.
-despite him saying he wanted the trespassers to leave, he reached into the SUV to take their keys to prevent them from leaving
-at the exact moment he was leaning into the vehicle the gun went off while it was pointed at the passenger's head

To me that's exceedingly implausible. The fact that his lawyer tried to use a Reddit discussion as evidence of hang fire being a common occurrence says a lot about the nature of the defense. Gun experts agreed that this is a very rare event and when it does happen, the delay is quite short. To me it sounds like a Hail Mary defense.

The PAL course itself says to wait 60 seconds to confirm that a hangfire hasnt occurred.

If the trigger is pulled and there is no noticeable discharge, wait 60
seconds while pointing the muzzle in a safe direction. If there is no hangfire
within 60 seconds, open the action pointing away from yourself and unload the
firearm. PROVE the firearm safe to ensure there is no blockage lodged in the
barrel.

I also dont see the rest of the items you listed to be implausible. The situation would have been tense. I could see him losing track of how many shots he loaded, how many he fired, and what was left in the gun. This is a farmer trying to protect his family not a trained law enforcement professional. Look how many police officers have trouble in tense situations. So I dont find it implausible he was under a high level of stress and didnt realize that he pulled the trigger one more time than the number of bullets that had fired.

[Amethyst]

>>Also if this was a bunch of drunk/stoned white kids, would this even make the news? <<

You think someone being shot and killed would NOT make the news?

[meritmat]

Would JT tweet about it?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

The PAL course itself says to wait 60 seconds to confirm that a hangfire hasnt occurred.

Sure, because you might have the one in a billion guns that'll fire 30 seconds after pulling the trigger so it's better to be exceedingly safe than sorry. But the Crown's gun expert testified that the longest verified hang fire in the studies that he was aware of was 280 milliseconds.

Like I mentioned above, the defense lawyer had to resort to printing out a Reddit thread to use as anecdotal evidence of people claiming to have had hang fires that lasted a prolonged period of time.

I also dont see the rest of the items you listed to be implausible. The situation would have been tense. I could see him losing track of how many shots he loaded, how many he fired, and what was left in the gun. This is a farmer trying to protect his family not a trained law enforcement professional. Look how many police officers have trouble in tense situations. So I dont find it implausible he was under a high level of stress and didnt realize that he pulled the trigger one more time than the number of bullets that had fired.

OK, but all those things happening at once? It's possible I suppose, but to me is extremely implausible. This guy happens to have a hang fire that's exponentially longer than any verified example, at the exact moment that he's leaning into a car full of people who were trespassing and trying to steal his property, and the gun just happened to be pointed right at the victim's head at that exact precise moment when the bullet finally fired? I don't know how you can say that's not implausible. Not impossible I suppose, but to me at least that is not a reasonable explanation of what happened.