[News] Flames reveal training camp roster. Treliving to address media at 11 AM MT

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Losing in the first round every year, then the second before exploding for a cup. Revisionist history if you think they were good in the playoffs for the first 10 years Ovechkin played.

Next up is Colorado being a cup favourite when they get smoked in the second round again.

This is not true but even then they only had one of the greatest of all time playing for them. Who is going to step up and carry the Flames?

Sutter took a team with a hot goalie to the final before so he may be able to do it again if everything comes together but this Flames team is no contender.

Our only hope is that Montreal went to the final so yeah…

Of course it’s just my humble opinion

[Jimdon]

Some posters saying "let's make the playoffs and see what happens" is the goal of every team, that's just not true. You think the Leafs goal this year is to just make the playoffs and see what happens? Or the Oilers? Or the Capitals in the years before they won the cup?
Making the playoffs and holding on for dear life isn't the goal of successful teams, it's the expectation. It's lower than the expectation even. Making the playoffs should be the bottom rung of the ladder of a contender or successful team, not the goal.

Maybe the goal of a young up and coming team with no where to go but up, but that goal is just a stepping stone to bigger expectations.

That's not the Flames, and Making the playoffs should have been the first rung of our ladder when our core was young, not when they are in their prime.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Saying "let's make the playoffs and see what happens" is not mutually exclusive to the idea of "building a legit contender". All teams strive for both, and some are more successful than others. Just because there are those against burning it to the ground, doesn't mean they are settling on a low(ish) bar of making the playoffs.

The goal is to win the cup. The path is to make the playoffs first.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

Some posters saying "let's make the playoffs and see what happens" is the goal of every team, that's just not true. You think the Leafs goal this year is to just make the playoffs and see what happens?

Yes.

Or the Oilers?

Yes.

Or the Capitals in the years before they won the cup?

Yes. But for most of these teams (the Oilers have experienced even less playoff success than the Flames have in the last decade) it is not "holding on for dear life." Rather, it is the first step in a longer term goal to win a championship: first, win a game; then make the playoffs; then secure home-ice; then win a playoff game; then win a round; then win another; then win the Cup. I guarantee you that this is the outlook of nearly every NHL team today, including the Flames. Not every team can meet every goal, or even most of these.

Making the playoffs and holding on for dear life isn't the goal of successful teams, it's the expectation. It's lower than the expectation even. Making the playoffs should be the bottom rung of the ladder of a contender or successful team, not the goal.

Maybe the goal of a young up and coming team with no where to go but up, but that goal is just a stepping stone to bigger expectations...

Some people seem to think that there are only two stages in the life-cycle of a NHL team: "rebuilding," and "contending." And I have seen it implied here and even espoused that if you are not doing one, then you should be doing the other; the worst possible situation is to be "stuck" doing neither. This is not reality.

The fact of the matter is that each and every year very few NHL teams are true "contenders"; this year, TB, Colorado, VGK, Carolina and maybe Toronto or Washington are among them. There are a few "rebuilding"teams that include SJ, Anaheim, Arizona, Buffalo and Ottawa—possibly also LA and Seattle. Then, there is everyone else. Most NHL teams will either miss the playoffs outright, or fail to advance past the first round. I think most coaches and managers are realistic about where they are in the cycle, and the Flames, along with two-thirds of the teams in the NHL are right there in the middle: not true "contenders," but also not in a stage—or even on the cusp—of "rebuilding" for various reasons. And for these 20, 22 or 23 teams you can be sure that their top priority today and for the duration of the entire season will be to make the playoffs, and to hopefully win a round. Most of them will fail to get that far.

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[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The team that had 99 points despite being in last place on new years?

Hardly a wannabe team either. They had a long period of contender status and 100+ point seasons before they finally broke through.

Funny part is they actually broke through on what was the downswing of that supposed run.

12-13: 2nd in Central - Lost in First Round
13-14: 2nd in Central - Lost in First Round
14-15: 1st in Cetnral - Lost in First Round
15-16: 2nd in Central - Lost in Conference Finals
16-17: 3rd in Central - Lost in Second Round
17-18: 5th in Central - Missed Playoffs
18-19: 3rd in Central - Won Cup
19-20: 1st in Central - Lost in First Round
20-21: 4th in West - Lost in First Round

There were a lot of first round losses in the mix for the Blues too...

I think the biggest misconception people have is that a teams progression is linear, and that a team is always going to develop and get better in a straight line.

And really in the NHL that just isn't true, teams grow and develop in cycles. Washington, Tampa, Pittsburgh, LA, none of those teams had linear progression leading up to their cup wins.

They would have good seasons, then have a step back and have a bad season, then have a couple good seasons. And I think people also think building a winner comes quickly...when really it doesn't and really the only team that had that happen were Chicago and Pittsburgh (first cup in 08-09) in the last 20 years.

Washington, Tampa, LA, St.Louis all took years to get to the point where they won the cup.

Over the last three seasons as a whole the Flames have the 4th best record in the Western Conference. Sure that's mostly on the back of a strong 18-19, but that's a lot better performance over time than a lot of people on here would have you believe. In that same time frame they are 3rd in the conference in Corsi For, 3rd in xGF% behind only Colorado and Vegas. Really what has held them back is that they are 12th in the conference in save percentage over that 3 year time period.

[Igottago]

I've always looked at sustained time at the top of divisions and conferences, and then looking at playoff runs. Teams that look good for a number of years generally have more favorable outcomes in the playoffs, and can eventually win it all, sometimes on multiple occasions. Its not linear, but there is reason to believe they can contend based on spending time at or near the top echelon of the league. Sure making the playoffs is a necessary step, but the Flames have done that 50% of the time during the rebuild and its not like anyone is happy. That is a step but its not a goal, nor should it be a goal of a team that is supposed to be at the apex of their rebuild.

If the Flames make the playoffs this season and get smashed up in the first round that would technically qualify as fulfilling Treliving's goal. They made the playoffs and saw what happened. And no one will be happy about fulfilling that goal.

[442scotty]

Came looking for training camp stuff and find nothing but the same old crap that has absolutely nothing to do with the thread. This forum is dis functional and can never, ever stick to the thread!

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Saying "let's make the playoffs and see what happens" is not mutually exclusive to the idea of "building a legit contender". All teams strive for both, and some are more successful than others. Just because there are those against burning it to the ground, doesn't mean they are settling on a low(ish) bar of making the playoffs.

The goal is to win the cup. The path is to make the playoffs first.

Yeah but this is the Flames we are talking about. Making the playoffs has always been THE goal of the organization since 2004. The organization has always treated winning the cup in the sense of anything can happen if you get in. No recent Stanley Cup winner has had that mentality. They are building their teams to win the cup and making the playoffs is expected. The reality is that anything can happen means you could get hot at the right time, win a round, or two, or even three, but that's it because teams like the Habs rarely ever win the cup as they end up losing to a team that built and planned on winning the Cup.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by 442scotty

Came looking for training camp stuff and find nothing but the same old crap that has absolutely nothing to do with the thread. This forum is dis functional and can never, ever stick to the thread!

I'm pretty sure posters discussing Brad Treliving's comments during his presser absolutely has everything to do with a thread titled "Flames reveal training camp roster. Treliving to address media at 11 AM MT"

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Igottago

If the Flames make the playoffs this season and get smashed up in the first round that would technically qualify as fulfilling Treliving's goal. They made the playoffs and saw what happened. And no one will be happy about fulfilling that goal.

There is a reason why context governs so much of our language, and why there is almost never the expectation that our words—especially those delivered off-the-cuff in response to questions at a press gathering—will be understood so inflexible literally.

No one here or anywhere is under the impression that after making the playoffs Treliving—or any other NHL GM, for that matter—will kick up his feet and declare "mission accomplished!" You must be an exceptionally naive person for suggesting that this is technically satisfying the team's season-goals. That, or you struggle mightily with the art of nuance.

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[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah but this is the Flames we are talking about. Making the playoffs has always been THE goal of the organization since 2004. The organization has always treated winning the cup in the sense of anything can happen if you get in. No recent Stanley Cup winner has had that mentality. They are building their teams to win the cup and making the playoffs is expected. The reality is that anything can happen means you could get hot at the right time, win a round, or two, or even three, but that's it because teams like the Habs rarely ever win the cup as they end up losing to a team that built and planned on winning the Cup.

I don't know how you can mind read a hockey organization. I feel more confident in saying all teams have the goal of winning the cup and to do so they must first make the playoffs. Some are more successful than others.

Listen, you will have no argument from me that the Flames results over the past 3-4 years have been disappointing against expectations. For sure the same could be said for the Oilers, Leafs, Canucks, Jets (maybe), Pittsburgh, Flyers, Capitals (post cup), Stars (with one good run) and a bunch I am sure I am missing. Basically any team that isn't rebuilding but haven't won anything either. Depending on the next few years, you might have to add Florida, Carolina, Boston, Isles or any other good team that hasn't won. All of these non-tanking teams are trying to make the playoffs and are trying to improve so that making the playoffs is more of a sure thing. I don't see the Flames as a particular outlier in that regard.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I think the most notable thing here is the general lack of interest.

Treliving had an availability, he said very little.

Not much to discuss

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I am not debating anything. I wanted a tear down last season. It’s obvious that ain’t gonna happen and therefore this is the next best hope. It’s that or just enjoying whining all the time.

Yeah that's exactly it.

I don't think there were any fans suggesting they needed to leave it alone and go with the same roster and watch a rebound.

Didn't happen.

I get that some want to 100% put that on Treliving but we've had that debate in over a dozen different topics for months.

But to get bent out of shape and seemingly take great joy from being completely angry and negative all the time just blows me away.

As many have pointed out clichés are pretty much a part of an opening press conference, and could have been predicted. Letting that create pages of anger just doesn't make any sense to me.

[talladega.25]

I just wanna see the new gear/masks our tendies have this year. Patiently waiting for media pics of the new swag lol

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah but this is the Flames we are talking about. Making the playoffs has always been THE goal of the organization since 2004. The organization has always treated winning the cup in the sense of anything can happen if you get in.

This is your impression, but I don't believe for a moment that this has always been THE goal. But then, by the same token, the reason it seems like this is an organisational approach is because the Flames have so infrequently been in a home-ice position to start the playoffs. But this is a product of circumstances, not the target.

No recent Stanley Cup winner has had that mentality. They are building their teams to win the cup and making the playoffs is expected. The reality is that anything can happen means you could get hot at the right time, win a round, or two, or even three, but that's it because teams like the Habs rarely ever win the cup as they end up losing to a team that built and planned on winning the Cup.

In twenty years there has been ten Stanley Cup-winning teams. It is extremely hard to win, and the fact of the matter is that most teams will never win one. Twelve teams have never won one. It took St Louis and Washington over forty years to win their first, and both are probably nearly as far away now from winning another one. Toronto has not won in over fifty years, and they look like they could realistically miss out on their best opportunity to win in at least two decades. No Canadian team has won in nearly thirty years.

The reality is that very few teams are fortunate and savvy enough to even open a true competitive window, and that most of the time this is what hockey teams can expect: either to miss outright, or to be eliminated in the first round. Teams like those in Calgary, Minnesota, Columbus, Florida, Manhatten, Toronto, Winnipeg and elsewhere illustrate just how difficult and futile it can be to build a championship roster. Teams like in Edmonton and Buffalo show that even under ideal conditions spectacular failure can occur.

Winnning is very hard. But it is a mistake to misconstrue the lack of success for an absence of desire or motive. That is just nonsense. Every team, every management group, every owner, every player, every fan wants more than anything to win a championship, and no one anywhere is merely content if all their team ever does is make the playoffs.


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[TheIronMaiden]

The comments about the goal is to make the playoffs are misconstrued. If you listen to the interview it was an innocuous comment. At worst it was a pre season platitude at best it was a pragmatic response to what the expectation of this roster will be.


To me the most interesting and thoughtful response BT had was when he stated that fans get hung up on what the roster looks like during the first game when really every day is an opportunity for change whether that be promoting players up the roster, promoting prospects or making trades. BT stated firmly that he is looking for opportunities to make this team better throughout camp and throughout the season.


Obviously lots of people wish there was a rebuild, but those arent the marching orders (yet). Complaining about no fire sale daily ain't going to change much.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is your impression, but I don't believe for a moment that this has always been THE goal. But then, by the same token, the reason it seems like this is an organisational approach is because the Flames have so infrequently been in a home-ice position to start the playoffs. But this is a product of circumstances, not the target.


In twenty years there has been ten Stanley Cup-winning teams. It is extremely hard to win, and the fact of the matter is that most teams will never win one. Twelve teams have never won one. It took St Louis and Washington over forty years to win their first, and both are probably nearly as far away now from winning another one. Toronto has not won in over fifty years, and they look like they could realistically miss out on their best opportunity to win in at least two decades. No Canadian team has won in nearly thirty years.

The reality is that very few teams are fortunate and savvy enough to even open a true competitive window, and that most of the time this is what hockey teams can expect: either to miss outright, or to be eliminated in the first round. Teams like those in Calgary, Minnesota, Columbus, Florida, Manhatten, Toronto, Winnipeg and elsewhere illustrate just how difficult and futile it can be to build a championship team. Teams like in Edmonton and Buffalo show that even under ideal conditions spectacular failure can occur.

Winnning is very hard. But it is a mistake to misconstrue the lack of success for an absence of desire or motive. That is just nonsense. Every team, every management group, every owner, every player, every fan wants more than anything to win a championship, and no one anywhere is merely content if all their team ever does is make the playoffs.


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You must be an extremely naïve person to think that anyone here is suggesting a Stanley Cup or bust. Perhaps you need a little bit of assistance understanding nuance.

We are talking about a team that has been outside of the first round a couple of times in around 30 years. I think most Flames fans would salivate at the thought of winning a playoff round at this point. That would be an astronomical success for this team. If the Flames do that, I would consider this season an absolute success. We can talk about contending when the Flames show they can make the dance and look like they might even know what to do when they get there.

[dino7c]

I bet every GM in the NHL has said "first goal is to make the playoffs" or something along those lines in the last week

Half the league is going to miss the playoffs, its not that easy

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Igottago

You must be an extremely naïve person to think that anyone here is suggesting a Stanley Cup or bust. Perhaps you need a little bit of assistance understanding nuance.

We are talking about a team that has been outside of the first round a couple of times in around 30 years. I think most Flames fans would salivate at the thought of winning a playoff round at this point. That would be an astronomical success for this team. If the Flames do that, I would consider this season an absolute success. We can talk about contending when the Flames show they can make the dance and look like they might even know what to do when they get there.

The condescending move is more effective if you’ve actually read the thread so you know what the poster is responding too. Otherwise “let me help you out with the nuance” just kind of looks silly.

[Reggie Dunlop]

What's the deal with Parsons?