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Old 09-25-2021, 07:58 AM   #321
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Pick a company other than Amazon. It doesn't matter. The point is still the same. There will always be rich people, and we need to find unique ways to get the rich people to invest their money in more economic opportunities, and not just by another yacht.

I agree that we need to find ways to help people have equal opportunity. I think there definitely isn't enough of that.
But someone made $$ selling the Yacht. And employees were paid by the company who made the Yacht

So instead we could give this money to the government and they could distribute the money to the Yacht maker and his employees who are now out of a job….??

The Rich buying things is good for the economy . The Rich investing their money in companies is good for the economy. The only thing that isn’t good is buying speculative real estate and borrowing against the equity - that doesn’t really stimulate anything

I still don’t know the problem we are debating - bringing up to ability for the lowest earners to earn more ? Bringing the middle class closer to the 1%. Bringing everyone closer to the 0.01%, or just trying to bring the 0.01% lower and give their money to the government for re-distribution

Taxing the “rich” (and I still don’t know what the definition of rich is” doesn’t solve any of the problems. If you want to advocate for higher minimum wages, mandatory retirement contributions, better education - those are all things that have a real tangible benefit ( or could - hence discussions )

Bill Gates has done a lot more with his money for sanitation and clean drinking water then the government would have if it taxed him and distributed to their friends and family and people to buy PS5s while sitting on their couches
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Old 09-25-2021, 08:04 AM   #322
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^it seems like most of the “tax the rich” sentiment is basically “we want the government to provide these services and someone else should pay for them”.

Very few self-identify as rich. Instead it’s people pointing at other people and saying “they can pay more”. I just think it’s always easy to spend other peoples money for them.
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Old 09-25-2021, 08:23 AM   #323
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want to start fixing wealth inequality? Start with Education.

You can tax the rich more, give it to the needier of our society, and they will likely throw it away on the newest gadget or car that they like. Hell, look at CERB - how many of the people who needed it budgeted, and then threw some of that money into investments? Or how many used it to buy PS5s, iPhones, etc. Would be an interesting study....

How many people received an actual education in budgeting and finance in grade school? I mean CALM had like a 1 week lesson on it, but other than that??? People have no clue how to manage money, and they learn that from their parents.

Rich parents teach their kids how to manage money. Poor parents likely don't focus on that as much. Get the education down first then look at solutions for actual $$$.
Most people know that saving and investing are for their financial well being. That isn't going to stop people from lining up to buy expensive trucks the next time there's an oil boom.

People overextend themselves financially because they are tempted by material things and experiences, not because they've never heard of savings and budgets. A couple weeks of highschool education in the subject isn't going to make the difference.
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Old 09-25-2021, 10:49 AM   #324
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But someone made $$ selling the Yacht. And employees were paid by the company who made the Yacht

So instead we could give this money to the government and they could distribute the money to the Yacht maker and his employees who are now out of a job….??

The Rich buying things is good for the economy . The Rich investing their money in companies is good for the economy. The only thing that isn’t good is buying speculative real estate and borrowing against the equity - that doesn’t really stimulate anything

I still don’t know the problem we are debating - bringing up to ability for the lowest earners to earn more ? Bringing the middle class closer to the 1%. Bringing everyone closer to the 0.01%, or just trying to bring the 0.01% lower and give their money to the government for re-distribution

Taxing the “rich” (and I still don’t know what the definition of rich is” doesn’t solve any of the problems. If you want to advocate for higher minimum wages, mandatory retirement contributions, better education - those are all things that have a real tangible benefit ( or could - hence discussions )

Bill Gates has done a lot more with his money for sanitation and clean drinking water then the government would have if it taxed him and distributed to their friends and family and people to buy PS5s while sitting on their couches
So the money in your example still gets spent.

It gets spent on food and rent and clothing. After the 2008 recession it was found that giving cash to middle and lower income people was one of the beat forms of stimulus because they spend it. So in general the economy is better off when poor people spend money than rich people spend money. The question would be which is a more efficient way of providing stimulus and productivity.

Now there certainly is an open question on whether Gates charitable work is better that just economic stimulus but that type of charitable spending is the exception.
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Old 09-25-2021, 12:51 PM   #325
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I don't know what any of this means... Your previous post that I quoted specified "1%" and I just wanted to point out that the top 1% in both income (~$250k) and net worth (<$10mm) in Canada isn't actually that rich, at least in a masters-of-the-universe sort of way.

So now you want to "look at say the 5 richest people in the world"? That's the top .00000006%...

If we're going to have a reasonable discussion around practical ideas and solutions, it would help to keep the goal posts stationary.
It is actually kind of a moot point where you want to talk about the 1% or the 0.0005% because most of them are self made.
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Old 09-25-2021, 12:52 PM   #326
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Didn’t Bezos’ parents kick a few hundred k into Amazon at the start?

That certainly isn’t nothing. It’s not never having to work but in order to be Gates or Bezos you have to be the right position at the right time and that requires a certain upper middle class base that is not available to all.
Don't forget the working hard part of the whole thing.

Both Bezos and Musk have openly said they work insane amounts of hours.
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Old 09-25-2021, 12:55 PM   #327
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Don't forget the working hard part of the whole thing.

Both Bezos and Musk have openly said they work insane amounts of hours.
This is the part that I dont think a lot of people understand. There are people on this board who are self-employed and they probably get it, I know I do.

"Be your own boss! Set your own hours!"

Yeah. You know what those hours are when you're your own boss?

Its all of them. It is all the hours.

Watching a movie? Thinking about work.
Having Dinner? Thinking about work.
On Vacation? Thinking about work.

Its hard.
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Old 09-25-2021, 12:55 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Jason14h View Post
But someone made $$ selling the Yacht. And employees were paid by the company who made the Yacht

So instead we could give this money to the government and they could distribute the money to the Yacht maker and his employees who are now out of a job….??

The Rich buying things is good for the economy . The Rich investing their money in companies is good for the economy. The only thing that isn’t good is buying speculative real estate and borrowing against the equity - that doesn’t really stimulate anything

I still don’t know the problem we are debating - bringing up to ability for the lowest earners to earn more ? Bringing the middle class closer to the 1%. Bringing everyone closer to the 0.01%, or just trying to bring the 0.01% lower and give their money to the government for re-distribution

Taxing the “rich” (and I still don’t know what the definition of rich is” doesn’t solve any of the problems. If you want to advocate for higher minimum wages, mandatory retirement contributions, better education - those are all things that have a real tangible benefit ( or could - hence discussions )

Bill Gates has done a lot more with his money for sanitation and clean drinking water then the government would have if it taxed him and distributed to their friends and family and people to buy PS5s while sitting on their couches
I actually agree with you on everything you say. The luxury tax is kinda irrelevant because you wouldn't collect much money from it anyways (people would just go to other countries and buy their luxury items there).
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Old 09-25-2021, 12:59 PM   #329
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^it seems like most of the “tax the rich” sentiment is basically “we want the government to provide these services and someone else should pay for them”.

Very few self-identify as rich. Instead it’s people pointing at other people and saying “they can pay more”. I just think it’s always easy to spend other peoples money for them.
True.

Also, maybe most people that we call 'rich' are just rich on paper in terms of the assets they own. Its not like they have liquid sitting in the bank ready to pay taxes with.

How many rich people in Canada are only rich because of the real estate they own?
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Old 09-25-2021, 01:25 PM   #330
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This is the part that I dont think a lot of people understand. There are people on this board who are self-employed and they probably get it, I know I do.

"Be your own boss! Set your own hours!"

Yeah. You know what those hours are when you're your own boss?

Its all of them. It is all the hours.

Watching a movie? Thinking about work.
Having Dinner? Thinking about work.
On Vacation? Thinking about work.

Its hard.
This is so true and frankly, something 99.9 % of people simply can't comprehend.

If you really want to be honest, very few people actually have what it takes to be rich & successful.
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Old 09-25-2021, 01:30 PM   #331
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This is so true and frankly, something 99.9 % of people simply can't comprehend.

If you really want to be honest, very few people actually have what it takes to be rich & successful.
Its not even about being 'rich' and successful. Its hard enough just to be successful period.

I've got 3 kids in University, my money goes out pretty much as fast as I earn it. Between Operational costs, Taxes and family expenses...I run a pretty good business but I rarely have much to show for it at the end of the day. Its a grind.

And its a lot of stress, the Pandemic made it a lot harder on top of everything else, the last two years have been a nightmare.
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Old 09-25-2021, 02:05 PM   #332
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Can I just leave this here?

https://twitter.com/user/status/1440731375217168392
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Old 09-25-2021, 02:06 PM   #333
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I don't doubt that you or anyone work hard but the idea that less successful people don't work as hard as you is dubious.

Theres a homeless guy around here who every garbage day I see riding his bike around going through everyone's garbage and recycling trying to find beer cans and scrap metal he can get paid for. He's working much harder than I do sitting at my home office and probably making 50 times less than me. I also suspect his stress level of trying to find somewhere to sleep or to get this next fix for his addiction is tougher than me prepping for a monthly grilling from the executives and owners of my company.
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Old 09-25-2021, 02:09 PM   #334
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I want to see that man get hit by a Private Jet.

He pretty well personifies the epitome of what is wrong with TV Evangelism.

You're supposed to be helping the less fortunate, not hoarding their cash for your own personal benefit.
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Old 09-25-2021, 02:28 PM   #335
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The really frustrating thing about the church - and particularly evangelicals - demanding donations, is what it means for their flock.

Many ministers suggest that donations should be 10% of income. The problem with that number is that it is also the minimum that everyone should be saving for their own, and their family's, future.

And the problem is that most people cannot do both. So when they donate 10% of their salary, to make the minister wealthy, they forego making a donation to their own family's wealth.

that is a very high price for spiritual support, IMO. It makes me sick.
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Old 09-25-2021, 02:42 PM   #336
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The really frustrating thing about the church - and particularly evangelicals - demanding donations, is what it means for their flock.

Many ministers suggest that donations should be 10% of income. The problem with that number is that it is also the minimum that everyone should be saving for their own, and their family's, future.

And the problem is that most people cannot do both. So when they donate 10% of their salary, to make the minister wealthy, they forego making a donation to their own family's wealth.

that is a very high price for spiritual support, IMO. It makes me sick.
It reminds me of visiting the Vatican in my youth.

You've got a lot of high-value art, golden paraphernalia and the like. You as the Church can afford to help the less fortunate if you liquidate some of this stuff.

But you dont want to. You want other people's money to do it. What does that say about your conviction?
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Old 09-25-2021, 05:00 PM   #337
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Don't forget the working hard part of the whole thing.

Both Bezos and Musk have openly said they work insane amounts of hours.
Sure but when one of the Criteria to become the richest person in the world is have parents who can float you a few hundred k it eliminates 95-99% of the hard workers.

Not to mention being born at the perfect moment in time 5 years earlier or later and it doesn’t work. So that eliminates another large pool of hard workers.

To be fair though I know I could never be a billionaire because I don’t understand not quitting after the first 5 or 10 million.

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Old 09-25-2021, 05:04 PM   #338
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I would imagine that becoming the richest person in the world requires a fairly lengthy list of very specific circumstances.
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Old 09-25-2021, 05:34 PM   #339
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I would imagine that becoming the richest person in the world requires a fairly lengthy list of very specific circumstances.
That’s kind of the idea behind wealth redistribution being ethical. Luck plays a disproportionate role in creating success.
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Old 09-25-2021, 05:43 PM   #340
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That’s kind of the idea behind wealth redistribution being ethical. Luck plays a disproportionate role in creating success.
Luck plays a role, yes. But as I said earlier, people require motivation. You level the playing field, you douse motivation.

Also, while it is indisputable that luck is a factor, it is very difficult to determine how much, and it is easy to overstate it. And I think saying it is a disproportionate role is overstating it. You have to be lucky in order to be invited to the game, but from the group that has that luck, only one succeeds.

Suggesting luck plays a disproportionate role in Bezos' success isn't reasonable, IMO. Did it matter that his parents were able to support his efforts financially? Absolutely. Most people's parents can't throw in hundreds of thousands of dollars.

However, the question needs to be asked: would he have been successful without that support? No one can say, of course. But there are lots of other sources of financing, for those that have viable business plans.
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