Foundation (Spoilers)

[Shazam]

There's not a lot of real character detail in the first Foundation book. Heck I don't think there's a lot of real plot. It's a lot of "5000 years later and here's how things are!" because it's a collection of short stories.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Locke

Ordinarily I'd have agreed with you....but when I saw how they did it with Hannibal and it allowed Laurence Fishburne a greater role? I was more than okay with it!

But I get your point. Dont do it for the sake of doing it, make it have a point.

My comment about representation was more that it should taken into account all cultures. Okay Hari Sheldon is in the show, but they killed him off right away and there isn't another positive replacement him after that.

Yes, if you recast make it have a point. Ignore the skin color and if they are a better actor/actress then great. Lawrence Fishburne, great with the expanded role and it enhanced the story. Same with the MCU, they recast some characters and left others the same, that was fine and it added to the story with Nick Fury and Kang the Conquerer being black. Those were fantastic actors/casting choices who are either extremely talented/well written and have character growth/development that shows they work as well with their non-minority counterparts.

Salvor, and Gaal (Rey/Michael Burnham clones) aside from their poor writing choice/flat acting, you don't see their stories or growth, you just see she's special right away and destined to be the savior because she can do something no one else can with her natural built in powers. i.e. Salvor probability stacking/Gaal I am super good at maths when on a backwards religious cult water planet that kills smart ppl and shuns higher education/books. I woulda been much happier if Salvor was just a boring administrator who rose to the challenge to save the colony.

They could have shown ppl a woman of color being able to use her wit and overcome her challenges to show she is just as capable as other males/non-minority peers as they struggle together, and gotten better together through perseverance. Instead w/ Salvor/Gaal the show is basically telling young girls of color that if they aren't blessed with special talents already they aren't gonna make it. Success is only achievable by the few naturally talented "chosen ones". It's shoehorned false empowerment and lazy writing.

[Locke]

Ooof...I have to say....Episode 5 was rough. That took work to make it through.

I felt like Malcolm McDowell in 'A Clockwork Orange.'

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

My comment about representation was more that it should taken into account all cultures. Okay Hari Sheldon is in the show, but they killed him off right away and there isn't another positive replacement him after that.

Yes, if you recast make it have a point. Ignore the skin color and if they are a better actor/actress then great. Lawrence Fishburne, great with the expanded role and it enhanced the story. Same with the MCU, they recast some characters and left others the same, that was fine and it added to the story with Nick Fury and Kang the Conquerer being black. Those were fantastic actors/casting choices who are either extremely talented/well written and have character growth/development that shows they work as well with their non-minority counterparts.

Salvor, and Gaal (Rey/Michael Burnham clones) aside from their poor writing choice/flat acting, you don't see their stories or growth, you just see she's special right away and destined to be the savior because she can do something no one else can with her natural built in powers. i.e. Salvor probability stacking/Gaal I am super good at maths when on a backwards religious cult water planet that kills smart ppl and shuns higher education/books. I woulda been much happier if Salvor was just a boring administrator who rose to the challenge to save the colony.

They could have shown ppl a woman of color being able to use her wit and overcome her challenges to show she is just as capable as other males/non-minority peers as they struggle together, and gotten better together through perseverance. Instead w/ Salvor/Gaal the show is basically telling young girls of color that if they aren't blessed with special talents already they aren't gonna make it. Success is only achievable by the few naturally talented "chosen ones". It's shoehorned false empowerment and lazy writing.

Spoiler!

Salvor's power isn't unique to her. It's foreshadowing illustrating the psychic powers that will be used against The Mule.

It's done poorly because in the books The Mule goes to a planet where everybody's a psychic and they neuter him in a paragraph.

[Hemi-Cuda]

If Apple can spend so much money on CGI and set design, surely they could have spared a few more dollars for some decent actors and stunt choreography. All of the action scenes look like they're out of a CW show, it's getting harder to stick with it. I'm gonna ride it out until the end of the season at least but if there isn't substantial improvement I won't watch S2

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

If Apple can spend so much money on CGI and set design, surely they could have spared a few more dollars for some decent actors and stunt choreography. All of the action scenes look like they're out of a CW show, it's getting harder to stick with it. I'm gonna ride it out until the end of the season at least but if there isn't substantial improvement I won't watch S2

They did say the fight on Terminus was severely impacted by Covid restrictions and therefore it ended up looking cheap and poorly choreographed.

[Hack&Lube]

Cross posting this from the Dune thread:

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Even Paul Krugman took the time to praise the movie in a column today https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/26/o...on-series.html

Interesting his take on the Apple TV+ Foundation series in this article (mostly about Dune) by the famous economist in the NY Times:

Originally Posted by Paul Krugman

So how does the Apple TV series turn this into a visually compelling tale? It doesn’t. What it does instead is remake “Star Wars” under another name. There are indispensable heroes, mystical powers, even a Death Star. These aren’t necessarily bad things to include in a TV series, but they’re completely antithetical to the spirit of Asimov’s writing. Pretending that this series has anything to do with the “Foundation” novels is fraudulent marketing, and I’ve stopped watching.

So why was the 1984 film a disaster? Because the director — yes, David Lynch — either didn’t grasp the subtlety and richness or decided that audiences couldn’t handle it. That is, he did to “Dune” what Apple TV has done to “Foundation.” For example, in the book there’s the “weirding way of battle,” which is about using psychology and deception to overcome foes; in Lynch’s film this was replaced with some kind of gadget.

The great thing about Denis Villeneuve’s “Dune: Part I” is that he respects the audience enough to retain the book’s spirit. He trimmed the narrative to reduce it to filmable size — and even so, his two and a half hours cover only the first half of the book — but he didn’t dumb it down. Instead, he relies on spectacle and spine-tingling action to hold our attention despite the density of the story. In so doing he made a film worthy of the source material.

[Shazam]

Yeah it's veered into stupidity. Ah well. All it needs is the Discovery mushrooming in.

[oldschoolcalgary]

i don't have Apple TV, but seriously considered it when I heard they were doing Foundation (and I am a huge Jared Harris fan)...

it's a shame that it sounds like they haven't done it justice...

Its definitely a tough thing to adapt though

[Coys1882]

I don't know - I think it's ok. I think people can be way too critical over music, games, TV and movies these days. Not everything can be 9/10 and that's ok.

[Wastedyouth]

I like Foundation so far.

But I haven't read the books. Because I know I would hate it then.

Haha.

[SilverKast]

I actually enjoy the show so far. I started reading the first book, but just couldn't get through it and started reading other things instead. Maybe after watching a few more episodes I'll try to go back and read it again.

[Shazam]

They've veered so far from the books now they're irrelevant.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I like Foundation so far.

But I haven't read the books. Because I know I would hate it then.

Haha.

Its not really a 'Book Reader vs Show Watcher' issue.

It isnt so much that they havent 'done service' to the books and thus alienated the fans, its just that it is boring as hell.

I loved the books. I know they'd make poor TV. So they have to change some things, I'm all on board for that. I get it.

But so far...this show is dull. And I mean criminally dull. Am I looking forward to slogging through another hour of this show?

And look...I'm the easiest sell. I WANT to like this show. I think its beautiful. It just isnt any fun.

I'd turn this off and watch Ted Lasso.

[Wastedyouth]

This last episode....

I dunno. Shark jump?

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

This last episode....

I dunno. Shark jump?

Yep. Chosen one super power trope.

[FireGilbert]

The big end of episode reveal bugged me. Gaal's abilities were already heavily foreshadowed from episode 2 yet this was presented as an epic twist.

I'm invested in the overall story arc but am having trouble with all the side stories to get us there which range from dull to ridiculously silly.

[Hack&Lube]

So now we have:

1. An Aliens/Event Horizon ghost ship that is randomly blinking in and out of regular space

2. That same ship looks more like a battlestation and it has the power to destroy worlds (Death Star)

3. The Warden has some psychic abilities to calculate probabilities by instinct so that coin flips always go her way

4. Gaal now has powers of prescience like Paul Atreides of Dune, which flies in the face of the point of Foundation which is that we don't have crystal ball ways of seeing the future but rather we use math and probability to calculate it

5. Hari Seldon calculated that he had to martyr himself so he turned himself into the Hologram Doctor from Voyager

[zamler]

I bailed after episode 5 or maybe it was 4 don't remember. Looks like I made the correct choice.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Yeah it's veered into stupidity. Ah well. All it needs is the Discovery mushrooming in.

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

So now we have:

1. An Aliens/Event Horizon ghost ship that is randomly blinking in and out of regular space

2. That same ship looks more like a battlestation and it has the power to destroy worlds (Death Star)

3. The Warden has some psychic abilities to calculate probabilities by instinct so that coin flips always go her way

4. Gaal now has powers of prescience like Paul Atreides of Dune, which flies in the face of the point of Foundation which is that we don't have crystal ball ways of seeing the future but rather we use math and probability to calculate it

5. Hari Seldon calculated that he had to martyr himself so he turned himself into the Hologram Doctor from Voyager

I swear the Alex Kurtzman's writing team got loaned out to Apple for this show. Jared Harris is completely wasted on a script of this quality.