[News] Ken King: Flames' owners no longer pursuing new arena with City of Calgary

[GGG]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yeah, so? What is your point? The land would be part of the City of Calgary's contribution to project as well. What is your point?



I think your math is off. The Oilers, after 35 years, will have paid just over 48% of costs. The City of Edmonton pays a hair under 52% of costs. What matters most here is the city is on the hook for $587.2M up front, and then has to carry the loans until those monies are paid back. Katz puts up $26.5M and gets a 35 year interest free loan.



You're right, details do matter. That's why I want to see the details of this purported 50:50 deal. Because the details of the Edmonton deal were absolutely brutal for the city. I can't believe the Flames would have anything remotely draconian like that, but you never know until those details are available.

I'm not saying that the Edmonton deal is 50/50. I am saying that if you asked Katz or if Katz was selling the deal to Council he would say he is putting up 50% of the cost. He is not but that is how you would sell it

So when I here King say 50/50 without detail. I wonder where the screw job is coming from. Is land in or out of 50-50, in CalgaryNext land was not included in Kings numbers.. When CalgaryNext was "50/50" but really was 800/450 much closer to 2/3 1/3 you can see why one would believe the 50/50 offer when getting the details will look much closer to Edmontons deal then really 50/50.

And this still doesn't consider an 8 million dollar per year tax subsidy. Until King releases details I will continue to assume that he has left costs off of the table to make his numbers look better.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GGG

I'm not saying that the Edmonton deal is 50/50. I am saying that if you asked Katz or if Katz was selling the deal to Council he would say he is putting up 50% of the cost. He is not but that is how you would sell it

So when I here King say 50/50 without detail. I wonder where the screw job is coming from. Is land in or out of 50-50, in CalgaryNext land was not included in Kings numbers.. When CalgaryNext was "50/50" but really was 800/450 much closer to 2/3 1/3 you can see why one would believe the 50/50 offer when getting the details will look much closer to Edmontons deal then really 50/50.

And this still doesn't consider an 8 million dollar per year tax subsidy. Until King releases details I will continue to assume that he has left costs off of the table to make his numbers look better.

Oh, this is all on the Flames? Are you forgetting Nenshi's Rule of Thirds offer, that turned into a 100% Flames financed arena, because the City's contribution was really a loan? Funny how details matter on one side, but not the other. Both sides are playing games here. Let's not try to suggest one side is the victim when both are taking turns trying to tie the other to railway tracks.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

The fact that the Flames can't even convince a forum of self-selected *Flames fans* to back any of their arena proposals should tell you enough about the merit of those proposals.

Do they have to convince Flames fans though?

Or do the "self made billionaire entrepreneurs" that own the Flames have to play poker with the "arrogant mayor" who is very concerned about his legacy?


My take on it so far:

Flames Ownership's business sense and negotiating skills are being vastly underrated on CP
Ken King is doing his job of directing bullets his way
Nenshi is adopting a "no emotional tweet" strategy

Things I am still waiting to see:
City's proposal
King referenced a lease payment and other options re city taxes, so details on the Flames proposal
Clarity on whether the City did or did not respond to the Flames February proposal.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Do they have to convince Flames fans though?

Or do the "self made billionaire entrepreneurs" that own the Flames have to play poker with the "arrogant mayor" who is very concerned about his legacy?

Yes they have to convince Flames fans. The point is if the most PRO-FLAMES segment of the population doesn't back it, then good luck with the rest. Who cares about Nenshi? He is one (albeit vocal) vote on council, and no councillor would support an arena deal hated by the rest of population.

This is not a Nenshi vs. CSEC thing. This is a "CSEC has not convinced ANYONE that what they have proposed is a good deal for Calgarians" thing. Once they've convinced the Flames fans, then they can work on the population at large.

[OmegaV4]

A question I have is that...Is it actually over?

Or will it be a scenario of "New Sheriff in town, lets get something done."

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by OmegaV4

A question I have is that...Is it actually over?

Or will it be a scenario of "New Sheriff in town, lets get something done."

The chances of there being a "New Sheriff in Town" seem very remote at this stage.

But nonetheless, this almost certainly not over.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Yes they have to convince Flames fans. The point is if the most PRO-FLAMES segment of the population doesn't back it, then good luck with the rest. Who cares about Nenshi? He is one (albeit vocal) vote on council, and no councillor would support an arena deal hated by the rest of population.

This is not a Nenshi vs. CSEC thing. This is a "CSEC has not convinced ANYONE that what they have proposed is a good deal for Calgarians" thing. Once they've convinced the Flames fans, then they can work on the population at large.

I would agree with the bolded part if the Flames actually threatened to leave and took steps to do so.

But at this point all they have done is walked away from the table,

As a result, at this point the battle is with the Mayor, not the fans (in my opinion)

(*recognizing it is a very fine line)

[GGG]

This is pretend deadline one.

The Flames plan was to win a public relations battle by Russiaing our elections and using organizations like Save Calgary to get a council more favourable to them. We'll see sometime today the reaction to Nenshis proposal who is winning that.

I think the flames miscalculated the average Calgarians appetite for tax subsidies for Arenas and as long as The cities proposal is reasonable people will back the city instead of Betman.

Their messaging was way off and King just sounds whiny and arrogant. If he just changed the messaging to we felt it best to step away from the table right now because no progress is being made and we need to focus and evaluate on how to maximize revenues in our current building. And then when asked if he will relocate. He should have said As long as the Flames aren't losing money every year we will stay. We will maxmoze every bit of income and cut costs where required. As time goes on that might mean not being a cap team but as along as Calgary supports the product on the ice we will be here.

You basically tie team success to a new building and commit to stay with a Salary structure that matches revenue. It would put public on the city to help.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by GGG

An arena anchor tenant does not help a CRL zone immensely. They can be successful with or without an Arena.

It helps to spur entertainment related development quicker. Probably. It’s a safe assumption anyways.

But, it was late and I didn’t consider the fact that the existing arena is already in the area so it would probably be a success without it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I would agree with the bolded part if the Flames actually threatened to leave and took steps to do so.

But at this point all they have done is walked away from the table,

As a result, at this point the battle is with the Mayor, not the fans (in my opinion)

(*recognizing it is a very fine line)

I've sure seen a lot of references to the Flames threatening to leave. But they really haven't. Of course, that's the sole last recourse if they can't use the Dome any more and there's no way to do a new arena that they can live with.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by GGG

This is pretend deadline one.

The Flames plan was to win a public relations battle by Russiaing our elections and using organizations like Save Calgary to get a council more favourable to them. We'll see sometime today the reaction to Nenshis proposal who is winning that.

I think the flames miscalculated the average Calgarians appetite for tax subsidies for Arenas and as long as The cities proposal is reasonable people will back the city instead of Betman.

Their messaging was way off and King just sounds whiny and arrogant. If he just changed the messaging to we felt it best to step away from the table right now because no progress is being made and we need to focus and evaluate on how to maximize revenues in our current building. And then when asked if he will relocate. He should have said As long as the Flames aren't losing money every year we will stay. We will maxmoze every bit of income and cut costs where required. As time goes on that might mean not being a cap team but as along as Calgary supports the product on the ice we will be here.

You basically tie team success to a new building and commit to stay with a Salary structure that matches revenue. It would put public on the city to help.

If they did this the mayor would just shrug it off as nothing. They needed to put pressure on him because they feel he's done nothing.

We'll see if this is true in a few minutes.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

If they did this the mayor would just shrug it off as nothing. They needed to put pressure on him because they feel he's done nothing.

We'll see if this is true in a few minutes.

And that seems to have worked spectacularly.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by nik-

And that seems to have worked spectacularly.

It forced Nenshi to produce the numbers today. That's something.

The Flames think their 50-50 deal is fair. Now whether WE think it's fair is another story.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It forced Nenshi to produce the numbers today. That's something.

The Flames think their 50-50 deal is fair. Now whether WE think it's fair is another story.

Well if their goal was to just force the numbers to be released, then yeah, they did well.

It wasn't though, their goal was to sway opinion (and basically influence the election), and with every new piece of information it's swaying against them. Ken King tactics strike again.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by nik-

Well if their goal was to just force the numbers to be released, then yeah, they did well.

It wasn't though, their goal was to sway opinion (and basically influence the election), and with every new piece of information it's swaying against them. Ken King tactics strike again.

They are swaying opinion. Yes it is arrogant but they believe that the deal posted in the other thread is bad.

Between us, I agree they have shot themselves in the foot.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by New Era

There is no confirmation their offer is out there. And if this is the Flames offer, how is it far, far worse than Edmonton's?

The Rogers Place deal was finalized as a $483.5M project, with the Katz Group paying $132.5M, and $112.8M of that as rent over 30 years. A ticket tax would recover $125M over time. So Katz got an arena built with $19.8M of up front funding, and 30 years to pay $112.8M, meaning the Oilers are leasing the arena for $3.76M a year.

The Winter Garden / Ford Hall component was added at a cost of $56.8M, with the city paying $25M of it in infrastructure costs. The Katz Group paying for $31.7M of the costs, but $25M of it in rent over 35 years, or $715K a year. The Katz Groups up front money on this component was $6.7M.

So in a $613.7M deal, the Katz Group had to put up $26.5M dollars, with the City of Edmonton covering the rest directly, through loan guarantees, or cost recovery mechanisms.

Yeah, the purported Flames deal of 50% was far, far worse.

I still believe the deal to be worked out is the 1/3 which both sides mentioned around the time the deal broke up. Both sides mentioned it, and Nenshi even discussed some of the sticking points. There was too much smoke here for this not to be the deal both sides were working on.

I don't think I said once the Flames deal was worse, but since you're the king of absurd hyperbole and overreactions on this topic, no shocker you chose to interpret my post how you wanted to. I said they've handled this process far, far worse than Edmonton did, unless their actual goal is to get everyone on the 3 way split deal. And there's no purported anymore, they've released and confirmed the 3 way split deal.