[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

Who wants to do that anyway. Other than for 1 maybe 1.5-2 months people aren't going to be strolling around in -25 degree weather deciding where to go. I

I would assume people would rather have dinning and bar options however they will know these ahead of time. These ideas work in Nashville and Phoenix California but not so much in winter areas

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. It's more of a devil's advocate.

The idea of surrounding an arena with an entertainment district is that the influx of 20,000 people to the area would create a need for restaurants and bars. The arena is an anchor to the community.

If those 20,000 people aren't using the surrounding businesses, then there is no point building an arena in an entertainment district. It's a black hole that is empty half the time and sucks life out of an area (think a commercial skyscraper after 5 pm)

So if we are sending people straight to the door on the C-train, then the idea of an entertainment district is largely moot. Instead of throwing millions of public dollars at an arena, it would be better to bolster already thriving areas (17 Ave, Kensington, and potentially Bridgeland, Inglewood)

Of course, it could work out regardless of the Arena, or in spite of it, with the Stampede being a major summer attraction, as well as increased density in Vic Park, East Village, and the McLeod Trail condos

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

Who wants to do that anyway. Other than for 1 maybe 1.5-2 months people aren't going to be strolling around in -25 degree weather deciding where to go. I

I would assume people would rather have dinning and bar options however they will know these ahead of time. These ideas work in Nashville and Phoenix California but not so much in winter areas

True to an extent. Yet Electric Avenue had a pretty darn good run as an entertainment district. I could see a run of venues, perhaps indoors, perhaps with great patio heating, perhaps with covered connections, in Vic Park.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't recall any upset over the name of the Corral. Then again, I wasn't born in 1950

If you are talking about when the Flames started, I still don't recall it. I was only 18 or so when the Flames played there. Frankly, in my circles, the Saddledome was a more ridiculed name.

I was referring to 1951. By the time the Flames arrived, the Corral had been the heart of Calgary's sports scene for 30 years.

Originally Posted by Lil Pedro

When is the corral set to be demolished? Next year?

IIRC, it was supposed to happen as early as last fall. But given the economy, I'm guessing either the Stampede or the various levels of government are balking at a half billion BMO Centre expansion.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I was referring to 1951. By the time the Flames arrived, the Corral had been the heart of Calgary's sports scene for 30 years.

Wow - people were upset at a Cowboy reference in 1951? That's surprising to me.

I never gave it much thought growing up (which was way pre-Flames). It didn't seem odd to me that I was going to see Rush at a place called the Corral.

I had never thought about it, but I kinda agree with the poster who says that unusual names make the naming rights less valuable.

[MacDaddy77]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. It's more of a devil's advocate.

The idea of surrounding an arena with an entertainment district is that the influx of 20,000 people to the area would create a need for restaurants and bars. The arena is an anchor to the community.

If those 20,000 people aren't using the surrounding businesses, then there is no point building an arena in an entertainment district. It's a black hole that is empty half the time and sucks life out of an area (think a commercial skyscraper after 5 pm)

So if we are sending people straight to the door on the C-train, then the idea of an entertainment district is largely moot. Instead of throwing millions of public dollars at an arena, it would be better to bolster already thriving areas (17 Ave, Kensington, and potentially Bridgeland, Inglewood)

Of course, it could work out regardless of the Arena, or in spite of it, with the Stampede being a major summer attraction, as well as increased density in Vic Park, East Village, and the McLeod Trail condos

I think this is the single biggest positive for east Village location. There's tons of professionals that are living in this area now ans if you provide them with options it will be successful. Having the #15 connected to the Ctrain is a concession to the transit commuter outside these core areas. It would be a small concession to make for the added comfort of the 1000's of people that use the transit system

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Not sure what you mean regarding the new library. The Green Line will not stop at the new library. The library is being built over the South Red Line connection between the 7th Avenue transit mall and the CP Tunnel, but does not have a station attached as part of it.

You are 100% right, and I'm very confused. Why wouldn't the city integrate a "central library station" into the library if the train is designed to literally go right through the library?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

You are 100% right, and I'm very confused. Why wouldn't the city integrate a "central library station" into the library if the train is designed to literally go right through the library?

I'd assume you probably don't want boatloads of people and trains making noise in a library.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

That's cherry picking a bit I think. Whistler village is a ski destination so you would expect to have to be outside. Also Whistler has a coldest average month of -5 Celsius http://www.holiday-weather.com/whistler/averages/
. If we had that there would be no need for any + 15 system in Calgary

Yes Calgary's -7C is nothing like Whistler's balmy -5C.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

You are 100% right, and I'm very confused. Why wouldn't the city integrate a "central library station" into the library if the train is designed to literally go right through the library?

The Red Line is the only train that goes through/under the new library, and seeing as city hall station is 50 metres away, and has stops in both directions, makes the need for a new station at the library redundant.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

You are 100% right, and I'm very confused. Why wouldn't the city integrate a "central library station" into the library if the train is designed to literally go right through the library?

Would be kind of pointless to have one in the library when City Hall Station is right there.

Plus the library was designed to go over the tracks, not the other way around. Encapsulating the train was a pretty key part of the design for noise and safety.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

You are 100% right, and I'm very confused. Why wouldn't the city integrate a "central library station" into the library if the train is designed to literally go right through the library?

The library is being built over an existing section of track that is on an incline between a tunnel and an at grade section, and is also on a horizontal curve between the north-south Macleod Trail alignment and the east-west 7th Avenue alignment, so you pretty much can't have a station right there.

Also, previous to the library site being selected the 7th Avenue transit mall stations were all reconfigured and rebuilt with the dual platform City Hall station bring built kitty corner to the library site.

All that said, if and when the 8th Avenue Subway is built, the Red Line will switch to operating there with a station directly under City Hall/Olympic Plaza (there is actually the shell of a station already built under City Hall). Thus the Red Line wouldn't operate regularly on the section of track the library is built over. This section would still be needed however to shuttle trains back and forth between the Red and Blue lines and the operations and maintenance facilities.

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

That's cherry picking a bit I think. Whistler village is a ski destination so you would expect to have to be outside. Also Whistler has a coldest average month of -5 Celsius http://www.holiday-weather.com/whistler/averages/
. If we had that there would be no need for any + 15 system in Calgary

I don't think comparing mild temperature Whistler to a freezing Urban setting is an apples to apples comparison at all.

What type of outdoor shopping and entertainment districts do places like Chicago, Minnesota, Denver, Boston, Toronto and Montreal have? These would be closer comparisons

See:
Laugavegur shopping street in Iceland.
Helsinki's design district.
Byward Market in Ottawa
Toronto's Entertainment District.

Just a few examples
Also:
http://www.placemakers.com/2016/01/0...winter-cities/

[RM14]

yikes, the "Alternate Green Line" option would be terrible if Arena get's built in the proposed location.

Spoiler!

[Barnes]

Just coming back to plot size compared to other arena's. Here's the Vic Park option (27, 871 m2) compared to some of the newer buildings and MSG.

MSG : 22,825 m2



PPG : 25,971 m2



Videotron: 27,542m2



TMobile : 27,902m2



Victoria Park Option : 27,871m2

[Muta]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

That's cherry picking a bit I think. Whistler village is a ski destination so you would expect to have to be outside. Also Whistler has a coldest average month of -5 Celsius http://www.holiday-weather.com/whistler/averages/
. If we had that there would be no need for any + 15 system in Calgary

I don't think comparing mild temperature Whistler to a freezing Urban setting is an apples to apples comparison at all.

What type of outdoor shopping and entertainment districts do places like Chicago, Minnesota, Denver, Boston, Toronto and Montreal have? These would be closer comparisons

Keep in mind, that four of Calgary's most popular shopping / nightlife / entertainment districts - 17th Avenue SW, 1st Street SW, Kensington, Inglewood - are all outdoor. Building a new outdoor entertainment district next to a new arena would likely be very successful given directly local and relevant examples.

[MacDaddy77]

I'm not arguing that, I'm just suggesting that having an enclosed +15 from Red line to arena will not take traffic away from the entertainment district. the success of the entertainment district will depend on the residential density surrounding it.

Having a en enclosed +15 would add to the area for transit customers I believe and not detract from it.

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

I'm not arguing that, I'm just suggesting that having an enclosed +15 from Red line to arena will not take traffic away from the entertainment district. the success of the entertainment district will depend on the residential density surrounding it.

Having a en enclosed +15 would add to the area for transit customers I believe and not detract from it.

I do understand the utility from having a +15 connecting an arena to the train line.

This isn't an urban design discussion, and I don't want to be a dick and lecture people.
+15s do tend to take away from street life though.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

I'm not arguing that, I'm just suggesting that having an enclosed +15 from Red line to arena will not take traffic away from the entertainment district. the success of the entertainment district will depend on the residential density surrounding it.

Having a en enclosed +15 would add to the area for transit customers I believe and not detract from it.

I agree that having an enclosed +15 from train to arena will be a requirement for any new development. That said, smart architectural design will allow for the corridor to interact with the street level and encourage active, interacting exit points along that corridor. This is an aesthetic issue and the right designer will know how to address this.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Mass_nerder

See:
Laugavegur shopping street in Iceland.
Helsinki's design district.
Byward Market in Ottawa
Toronto's Entertainment District.

Just a few examples
Also:
http://www.placemakers.com/2016/01/0...winter-cities/

I don't think Northern European cities should be considered. Those bastards will drink coffee on a patio at -20!!!!

I would say, in general, North Americans don't have the same love of urban outdoors as our European cousins. But I agree, 17th ave is largely busy in the winter months.

[wired]

I don't live in Calgary any more, so I don't really care about a new arena.
But I am opposed to billionaires getting a free arena from any type of government.
Edmonton got hosed big time.
I am paying for Rogers Place, and I f$#@ing hate the soilers.