Agreed. He's been sheltered but has not been a liability. We've had eleven D pairs hit the 50 minute mark this season, here they are sorted by expected goal %:
The top seven are all D pairs we should be comfortable playing in the playoffs as long as they're slotted properly.
Also pretty interesting that the top 2 pairs are Hanifin-Brodie and Giordano-Hamonic. Obviously a small sample size, and I've been really happy with our top 4 D overall, but could swapping Hamonic and Brodie actually be worth doing full-time?
I think the big gap between Andersson and Prout is sheltering. Prout and Kylington are the only Calgary defenseman that have faced on average players that get out played with their ice time this year. Andersson's average is much closer (though behind) the big four in Calgary.
Yes, this very likely explains the struggles of Giordano-Andersson, Brodie-Andersson, and Hanifin-Andersson as pairs. Top four minutes are much tougher than bottom pair minutes. Andersson has struggled when elevated up the lineup.
But Andersson's been pretty sheltered when with Valimaki or Kylington, just as Stone and Prout have. Those are the more interesting places to be poking and prodding.
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Originally Posted by Bingo
Additionally, there has to be some right place right time stuff for Prout. For example he's ahead of Brodie, Valimaki, Andersson and Kylington in terms of high danger chances per 60 minutes when we all know not a single of these events came from him..
Is that really just right place right time though, Bingo? If you're in the offensive zone, because you're not hemmed in the defensive zone, you should be expected to be on the ice for more dangerous chances. I think we both agree that he's just doing his simple nob and not directly contributing to offense, but zone time by itself contributes to offense.
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Is that really just right place right time though, Bingo? If you're in the offensive zone, because you're not hemmed in the defensive zone, you should be expected to be on the ice for more dangerous chances. I think we both agree that he's just doing his simple nob and not directly contributing to offense, but zone time by itself contributes to offense.
Do you have a lot of recollections of him getting the puck into the offensive zone, or heroically keeping it in the offensive zone?
So no it can't all be right place right time, but I do think there's a mix of pretty healthy along for the ride mixed in with keeping it simple (which is a skill).
Either way, don't really disagree ... he's solid for a 8/9 guy and shouldn't be the source of ire for a fan base.
Do you have a lot of recollections of him getting the puck into the offensive zone, or heroically keeping it in the offensive zone?
Not at all. I do have recollection of him hitting the net a few times though in past games, which probably led to rebound chances. I suspect though he's broken up a few cycles because that pair usually breaks it out quick and early from my viewings.
My take on Prout is that he's basically just a Sarich type scrub, but in sheltered minutes he is able to pressure the puck and let his partner carry the play. But for a #9D, or even #7, that's solid. Which is a huge step up from a liability. I do wonder if the team when healthy could benefit from swapping full pairs - Kylington-Prout/Stone and Valimaki-Andersson/Stone - instead of forcing the Kylington-Andersson pair.
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Last edited by GranteedEV; 02-06-2019 at 03:19 PM.
1) He gets the puck in corners/front of the net. He is good at it. Handling the puck? Not so much... but honestly better than I thought he would be at it.
2) Give him the puck at the opposing blue-line, and he shoots it. Almost every single time. Very "Hamilton-esque" to me, but with a much worse shot. Still, he often gets it on net. Perhaps the high danger chances are when it happens through traffic? Or when there is a rebound? I usually notice that the goalie has little trouble with the shot - often is a controlled rebound to an open corner, or just catches and freezes the puck.
Either way, I think we can all agree on that Prout is no offensive defencemen, but he is competent. Outside of the first Vancouver game where Pettersson made him look a bit silly (but that kid is definitely good, and there was not real 'book' on Pettersson for Prout to know about), I felt that Prout has done a good job all season filling-in when necessary.
He has done a good enough job that I am glad he is on the team. It might be huge for the playoffs if injuries start piling up again, or simply in case you go up against a team that is built with large wingers that forecheck well. Both Andersson and Kylington have trouble along the boards against bigger players, so to me it is not surprising that they have lower numbers overall as a pair. However, they just need to get some more 'man-strength' like Brodie has, or just practice handling the puck in-tight along the boards more deftly like Brodie.
with 20+ years on this site there are two things that never change ...
1) a lot of fans hate fourth liners and 7th defensemen
2) a lot of fans want young players in the lineup over vets
the first one never sorts out as they're is always someone in that role, and eventually they'll be disliked.
the second one is a good idea when the young players are good, but a mess when the torches are being carried for the likes of Dustin Boyd.
And offensive players are loved while defensive is overlooked. And dangly offensive players are highly valued while guys that just score without dipsy doodling aren't as much.
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Feb 6 Practice Notes. Hamonic, Hathaway return. Gaudreau, Prout maintenance day
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Originally Posted by Snapshot
I'm sure that happens everywhere. Just hard to compare Dalton Prout favorably with Cory Sarich, or to prefer Brett Kulak to Travis Hamonic.
I think GranteedEV is a little like Corey Pronman in how he evaluates players. I would guess from his posts that he fixates on skating and speed to a fault that obstructs other very important player attributes.
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Originally Posted by woob
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The Flames had some talented teams back then and were held back by constantly playing Bouwmeester and Giordano with Sarich. Sarich might have had some positives that people who love physical play loved but people really forget how much of a shackle he was on overall team play. We also paid him like a top 4 guy when he should have been a third pair guy at best. He wasn't Chris Butler bad but he was a blight on this team with how we used him. The Brent Sutter era was not a pleasant era and only had a few positives and Sarich was not one of them. I don't think it's a coincidence Sarich and Hartley never saw eye to eye and while Hartley had his flaws, he was still a coach who kind of favoured the skill game like I do.
Maybe Sarich was more effective before the lockout, when you could basically bearhug guys defensively and there was no two line pass. I don't doubt it. But I never loved him in his time here and if fans of his intangibles take exception to that, it's their right but let's not act like he was Regehr or Hamonic.
Re: Kulak
He wasn't an offensive defenseman or a physical player, but he was incredibly steady. I think he will have a very solid career as an all-arounder defenseman. But I valued Hamonic less last year because we had Hamilton and Brodie, who I felt should have been playing on the right side for us instead of forced on a pair with Hamonic on the left. Without Hamilton, Hamonic is far more valuable to us at present than Kulak would be. But that doesn't mean Kulak doesn't have the ability to be part of a really effective defense pair within his limitations. MMF can "small sample size" me all he wants but his success with Weber was no coincidence - it was a nice fit of complementsty skillsets and two very steady players. They've since played Mete more with Weber and their top pair hasn't been so steady, but I guess they want Mete to get that development which is valid.
I'm not going to apologize for my opinions, even if I know some people like MMF/LWCrowfoot think so ill of me as to petulantly diss me on other forums. I'd rather be true to myself than try to please others, though I know sometimes I can be condescending online without meaning to be. I am sorry about the condescension.
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Last edited by GranteedEV; 02-07-2019 at 12:11 PM.
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