[Signing] Flames sign Blake Coleman (6 years, $4.9m AAV)

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Does your post not show that he's below average in terms of 5 on 5 production per dollar of cap hit? Albeit only slightly



I calculated it to an 82 game season. What should I have done? Not commented on his play so far because it's only about 20% through the season?

Or are you saying it's too early to make judgements on the long term repercussions of the contract?
I was criticizing this deal well before it even happened (Coleman was always going to be overpaid by whichever team signed him - that's how free agency works).

Mikael Granlund is younger, signed a much much more reasonable 4 x 4, and is now a point per game. It's actually possible to make good UFA signings. It's like stocks. The trick is to buy low, not high.

Well first off you can say whatever you want.

But no I was replying to this ... "Based on production, he's not even earning his salary in year 1" ... I'd say he's pretty much dollar for dollar on his value in terms of production.

[TheScorpion]

Even with his slow start, Coleman is on pace for 31 points while playing excellent defence.

Can't imagine being worried about that.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Even with his slow start, Coleman is on pace for 31 points while playing excellent defence.

Can't imagine being worried about that.

Yeah, I am not too worried. He is playing down the line-up at the moment. This is what Sutter does to everyone and it works. At some point, it will be Coleman's turn in the top 6 and he will start putting up points again.

As long as he keeps playing responsibly, he is doing his job.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Even with his slow start, Coleman is on pace for 31 points while playing excellent defence.

Can't imagine being worried about that.

Yep,

Coleman in my view was always more of 2 way 3rd line type of player

Really good defensive, not really an offensive player

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Coleman is playing great and now that he isn't saddled with Monahan and reunited with Backlund I expect everything to get better.

Coleman-Backlund-Mangiapaine is a brand new line and was absolutely dominant all game long. Once these guys get more time to figure it out together look out.

Agreed, kind of hard to look good when your center looks like he's skating with 10 pound bells attached to his skates.

Backlund compliments Coleman much better and points will start coming.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by keenan87

For me, I don't mind having 1 high priced defensive specialist (maybe 2). However, when the bottom six has Lucic, Backlund, and Coleman - that is a ton salary tied up.

Backlund has been the de facto #2 centre most of the year. The only player you listed who is consistently in the bottom 6 is Lucic, and we all know why that contract is there.

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Does your post not show that he's below average in terms of 5 on 5 production per dollar of cap hit? Albeit only slightly

The difference between #134 and #140 in the NHL is insignificant. The 140th-highest paid forward in the league has a cap hit of $4,750,000 compared to Coleman's $4,900,000. Apparently you don't think having an excellent defensive forward and top-flight penalty killer is worth $150,000.

[Bingo]

The other thing is how the league is moving contract wise.

$4.9M is a lot of money but it's no longer top line cash. I mean Lindholm has the same contract and he's a top line player, but his contract was signed four years ago.

By averages $4.9M is somewhere between forward 4 and 5 on the average team. Coleman fits that pretty well.

Having said that I wouldn't be surprised to see him get points in a few consecutive games soon and end up on a 40 point pace instead of 31.

[Flamesfan05]

If he ends up with 30 pts, it’s a disappointment unless he makes some noises in the playoffs

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I mean Lindholm has the same contract and he's a top line player, but his contract was signed four years ago.

More to the point, Lindholm wasn't a top-line player when he signed that contract. The cap hasn't gone up by that much, but Lindholm's value has skyrocketed since then.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

If he ends up with 30 pts, it’s a disappointment unless he makes some noises in the playoffs

Well he'd be right on pace for his contract in terms of production.

But yeah less than I'd guess going in so a bit of a disappointment, but certainly not a huge issue.

[Enoch Root]

I think Coleman has been great - even better defensively than I thought. And though his offense has been a little less than expected so far, I keep reminding myself that he has not been on scoring lines. Now that he is playing with Mangiapane and Backlund, I expect we'll see some catch-up.

I still expect 40 points or so, which, combined with his defense, is a bargain at $4.9M

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Even with his slow start, Coleman is on pace for 31 points while playing excellent defence.

Can't imagine being worried about that.

The thing that worries me is years 4, 5 and 6.

Unless the Flames are bona fide cup contenders, I will never like any long contract to an older player.
I did not think the Flames were cup contenders prior to this summer, so I did not like the contract.

Except for some reason, I'd be fine with a long contract to Gaudreau.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I think Coleman has been great - even better defensively than I thought. And though his offense has been a little less than expected so far, I keep reminding myself that he has not been on scoring lines.

His save on the last-minute Zadorov giveaway vs Philly has bought him a ton of leash in my eyes.

That said I'm still with 1qqaaz in that my concerns are whether he can be a useful player in the tail end of the contract. Just look at a guy like Trevor Lewis at age 34... he used to be the Kings' version of Blake Coleman around age 30.

[Enoch Root]

Worrying about the latter years of the contract is pretty pointless at this point, IMO

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Worrying about the latter years of the contract is pretty pointless at this point, IMO

What? Age is too important to disregard. And cap management is the most important thing in hockey.

Originally Posted by Bingo

The other thing is how the league is moving contract wise.

$4.9M is a lot of money but it's no longer top line cash. I mean Lindholm has the same contract and he's a top line player, but his contract was signed four years ago.

By averages $4.9M is somewhere between forward 4 and 5 on the average team. Coleman fits that pretty well.

Having said that I wouldn't be surprised to see him get points in a few consecutive games soon and end up on a 40 point pace instead of 31.

Coleman is 30 years old, has 5 years left after this year, makes 4.9 mill person season, and is on pace for 26 points in year 1 of the deal. This should be the part of the deal where the Flames get some value if the contract has any value whatsoever. How many 26 point 30 year olds are even in the league at the age of 35? Blake Comeau?

If "forward 4 and 5" are getting 26 points, that's a problem. Luckily, other guys are stepping up.

Lucic's contract looks great in comparison when you consider the term remaining. Dube and Mangiapane are currently underpaid. Linholm's contract is great.
Backlund has a reasonable amount of term remaining. Lewis has been almost as productive as Coleman. Same goes for Tanev, Gudbranson, and even Zadorov.

Danault, Hyman, and Saad all signed similar contracts and are producing more.
Mikael Granlund signed a 4 year 5 mill per deal and is over a point per game this season.

The Palmieri and Hoffman contracts are looking better as well. Foligno and Haula have struggled, but they have short term.

Based on production, this has been by far the worst contract signed, across the league, in this past free agency. And it's not remotely close.

I'm pretty optimistic when it comes to the roster, prospects, development, drafting, etc. But I am unable to do the mental gymnastics necessary to make myself think long term UFA deals are anything but foolish. I hope I'm wrong. I was wrong about hating the Tanev signing. But this deal has all the signs of being dreadful for the better part of a decade. This is my last word on the subject - there's nothing more to be said.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

What? Age is too important to disregard. And cap management is the most important thing in hockey.



Coleman is 30 years old, has 5 years left after this year, makes 4.9 mill person season, and is on pace for 26 points in year 1 of the deal. This should be the part of the deal where the Flames get some value if the contract has any value whatsoever. How many 26 point 30 year olds are even in the league at the age of 35? Blake Comeau?

If "forward 4 and 5" are getting 26 points, that's a problem. Luckily, other guys are stepping up.

Lucic's contract looks great in comparison when you consider the term remaining. Dube and Mangiapane are currently underpaid. Linholm's contract is great.
Backlund has a reasonable amount of term remaining. Lewis has been almost as productive as Coleman. Same goes for Tanev, Gudbranson, and even Zadorov.

Danault, Hyman, and Saad all signed similar contracts and are producing more.
Mikael Granlund signed a 4 year 5 mill per deal and is over a point per game this season.

The Palmieri and Hoffman contracts are looking better as well. Foligno and Haula have struggled, but they have short term.

Based on production, this has been by far the worst contract signed, across the league, in this past free agency. And it's not remotely close.

I'm pretty optimistic when it comes to the roster, prospects, development, drafting, etc. But I am unable to do the mental gymnastics necessary to make myself think long term UFA deals are anything but foolish. I hope I'm wrong. I was wrong about hating the Tanev signing. But this deal has all the signs of being dreadful for the better part of a decade. This is my last word on the subject - there's nothing more to be said.

I think what people are saying isn't that they don't think age 35 will be a problem, but they're not worrying about it since it's pretty much the cost of doing business on free agency day.

Coleman has me a little worried offensively though, some plays are dying on his stick more than I'd like. It's one thing to not be the driver offensively, but be elite in support creating more zone time, but we're not seeing that to the level I'd like.

Defensively it's hard to argue though, as he's been great. And I guess with the system Sutter is rolling out it's key to have another player of his ilk to play in the top six.

Hoping he settles in and gets more going on the cycle along with production though.

[SuperMatt18]

Coleman, Lewis, Pitlick, Richardson were all brought in to help us defensively and on the PK.

I think the points will come for Coleman, but honestly I don't think we can overlook what having an increased focus on "checking" in the bottom 9 of our forward group has done so far this year.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Coleman, Lewis, Pitlick, Richardson were all brought in to help us defensively and on the PK.

I think the points will come for Coleman, but honestly I don't think we can overlook what having an increased focus on "checking" in the bottom 9 of our forward group has done so far this year.

Watching the 4th line play of late you could make a case that Richardson and Lewis have been great pick ups. Most CPer's were livid that we pick these guys up and didn't gift spots to some of our AHL prospects. Patience seems to be an issue with a lot of us

Markstrom was a terrible deal by most last year and all summer but those people who hated that deal are quiet right now.

Coleman played on a team that won back to back cups and because of the postponing of the 19/20 season he played 2 playoffs in a very short period of time and then went to a new team. Offensively he hasn't been great but he has been great defensively. I don't know let's maybe give him 20 more games before we flip out? Players like Coleman usually are streaky and a good 5 game stretch can easily fix the numbers.

The Flames have also played a ton of road games so practice time with the new team has been limited.

[garenflames]

Coleman is worth it for his D/PK alone. Points will start coming.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think what people are saying isn't that they don't think age 35 will be a problem, but they're not worrying about it since it's pretty much the cost of doing business on free agency day.

Coleman has me a little worried offensively though, some plays are dying on his stick more than I'd like. It's one thing to not be the driver offensively, but be elite in support creating more zone time, but we're not seeing that to the level I'd like.

Defensively it's hard to argue though, as he's been great. And I guess with the system Sutter is rolling out it's key to have another player of his ilk to play in the top six.

Hoping he settles in and gets more going on the cycle along with production though.

I mentioned this in a past thread this week, but upon watching him all season I've really noticed that the last time I saw a winger who was THIS effective defensively (outside of Mark Stone, he's just an anomoly) was... Marian Hossa. The way Coleman backchecked on that Zadorov 59th minute giveaway vs the Flyers... it was Hossa-esque. You can't replicate that hockey sense with just youth.

Now Hossa produced a lot on the PP over his career, I don't expect Coleman to even play on ours, but I'm starting to believe Coleman can age well. The Blackhawks declined not because Hossa got bad, but because Hossa retired when he was still good in his LATE 30s. I realize that's an ELITE player, but that's who I'm starting to be reminded of (another defensive winger who aged really well has been Joe Pavelski, though he's played more centre as well). I'm starting to eat crow on the signing.

As for the offense, for now I'm not too concerned given how productive he was 5v5 in the past... just seems to be the ebbs and flows of playing 5v5. He hasn't shanked any perfect setups or anything, his goals have been legitimate, and at some point Backlund or Eatbread are going to get his confidence up... it's what those two do.