Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Looch City]

It was also just ONE attack ad against her vs all of this #### already against the Liberals.

Like calm down bro, she's still alive and grifting away!

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Ok, what's your opinion on the clip of Marlaina saying good things about the carbon tax?

I think Smith's opinion then and now mirrors that of Canadians across the board from 2021-2024 on carbon pricing.

We had an election in 2021 on carbon pricing and it was thought that a proper climate pledge from the left leaning parties was the way to go. There was discussions that due to multiple wins by the Liberals, that a climate policy including a tax was set in stone for the future.

Fast forward to 2022-2024 and we have significant inflation concerns and an affordability crisis. It's the type of inflation that is crushing and it's showing in the political pools and from the pundits. The Liberals are really trying to reshape the messaging and the benefits of the tax because across the board, it's not popular now and will probably be a major factor in an election loss.

I do believe quietly a lot of Liberal MP's are wondering if a pause was the better idea as opposed to an increase today. Politically speaking, Trudeau may win or lose the next election but his future is secured and frankly, I don't think he cares much. Other MP's want and need this job for their future and they are more along the lines of working class Canadians than someone like the PM.

I do think it's bad politics and optics to keep bragging that Canadians are way better off with this tax/rebate program. A lot of, we are getting way more money then we pay out. As I noted before, logically we should be putting a carbon tax on everything so that we can all get rich.

Flipping the switch to the Conservatives and axing the tax. I think it's a popular move that is filled with risks as well. They better ensure some significant legislation and secure some promises/guarantees from corporate Canada about lowered prices. If Canadians are just going to be paying the same and even more for fuel, energy, and day to day goods, without the carbon rebate, people will wonder WTF is happening.

[Johnny Makarov]

Crazy. 2024 and we have Danielle Smith apologists in here. Horse meds are real folks!

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Flipping the switch to the Conservatives and axing the tax. ... They better ensure some significant legislation and secure some promises/guarantees from corporate Canada about lowered prices.

LOL, imagine thinking this would actually happen. I actually can't wait for it. Conservatives blame increases on carbon tax, axe the tax, the only thing that goes down is gasoline. You think conservatives would actually legislate businesses to lower their profit/revenues?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by #-3

I think even when she is trying to be reasonable it is still Smith, wishful thinking around technology that doesn't exist, so they can try to avoid the reality that there will be costs and implications of moving over to a new technology that does exist and has fewer negative externalities but isn't necessarily a market driven change.

(I'm talking about hydrogen fueled personal vehicles).

A few months ago Shell announced closure of all (or maybe it was 6/7) of their consumer hydrogen stations in California. Marlaina sure knows how to pick them.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

LOL, imagine thinking this would actually happen. I actually can't wait for it. Conservatives blame increases on carbon tax, axe the tax, the only thing that goes down is gasoline. You think conservatives would actually legislate businesses to lower their profit/revenues?

I actually don't, no. That would be logical but won't happen! Hell, perhaps the Liberals should do this. Keep the tax and hammer big business with their BS. I also don't believe this carbon tax is effective at really reducing emissions and really impacting climate change in Canada.

Personally I think this will be the next pressure point for Canada in regards to this policy. With climate change perhaps driving more and more extreme weather, people will wonder if this is actually working for Canadians without the others doing their part. If all we are doing is paying more, or getting more back (depends on how you look at it) and the rest of the world isn't doing their fair share, this policy will be rescinded.

People are going to want a return on their investment in the form of reduced affects of climate change.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by curves2000

People are going to want a return on their investment in the form of reduced affects of climate change.

The biggest failure I see with the Carbon Tax is this. All we'll have to rely on for measuring the effects are studies. We won't physically see anything. And with the amount of distrust in absolutely everything, people can just reject the study easily. How do we verify we are pumping less carbon into the air as a result of the tax? What are the measurables to define success? I'm sure this is written out, but I myself usually do a lot of research and don't know this, so your average person certainly wouldn't. This isn't like the fight against acid rain that some of us went through.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Firebot

"Marleina likes carbon taxes nyah nyah!"

She should like Carbon taxes. They are the fiscal conservatives wet dream solution to Climate change.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I actually don't, no. That would be logical but won't happen! Hell, perhaps the Liberals should do this. Keep the tax and hammer big business with their BS. I also don't believe this carbon tax is effective at really reducing emissions and really impacting climate change in Canada.

Personally I think this will be the next pressure point for Canada in regards to this policy. With climate change perhaps driving more and more extreme weather, people will wonder if this is actually working for Canadians without the others doing their part. If all we are doing is paying more, or getting more back (depends on how you look at it) and the rest of the world isn't doing their fair share, this policy will be rescinded.

People are going to want a return on their investment in the form of reduced affects of climate change.

Europe has placed a Carbon tax on imports where Carbon has not been taxed. The idea that the rest of the world isn’t doing something is false.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

The mental gymnastics anf absolute damage control that Firebot feels he needs to firehose with Danielle's comments is truly admirable. I guess when you can't possibly think that the simplest answer is the right one, you must perform a complex ballet of 4D chess.

I'm sure firebot is aware of that danielle says whatever needs to be said so she can maneuver politically in her favor. A classic tale of a seasoned political grifter.

Mental gymnastics is posting a tweet from a radical environmentalist, selling the 23% carbon tax increase that came today as a Canada Carbon Rebates increase, a name that had been rebranded multiple times since clearly Liberals think the issue is communication, and trying to salvage a sinking ship by using a a provincial level politician's podcast from 3 years ago while calling her Marleina.

The Liberal message in recent months has been to sell the rebate part of the carbon tax increase at all costs with little mention of the climate change part , which as you can imagine lost meaning when the Liberals did their heating oil carve out and pandering based on regional partisanship. As Gudie Hutchings once famously said: “I can tell you Atlantic Caucus was vocal with what they've heard from their constituents, and perhaps they need to elect more Liberals in the Prairies so that we can have that conversation as well”. It appears that Canadians are ready to boot the Liberal-NDP coalition government instead and just waiting for the elections to clean house.

Danielle Smith made a positive mention of the carbon tax rebate 3 years ago, an innocuous and true statement at the time. This to you and the usual suspects (who ran in as quick as they could yet again I see) nullifies everything about the carbon tax situation in 2024.

But sure, I'm doing the gymnastics and damage control, for Danielle Smith of all people, someone who I voted against and despise? You just haven't been paying attention. So your goal is to have people admit that Danielle Smith is a grifter? Ok. Smith is a grifter. Now what? How does any of this help the federal Liberal brand (or the NDP for that matter)?

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by GGG

Europe has placed a Carbon tax on imports where Carbon has not been taxed. The idea that the rest of the world isn’t doing something is false.

I am more referring to carbon taxes and reducing emissions from large emitters like China, India, the US and others.

I don't want to derail the Canadian Politics thread but sooner or later the finger pointing will become problematic for this policy. I know this is a global issue but countries like Canada think they may be making meaningful impacts but it's the big dogs in the room that will make the policy that really matters. So far they have chosen to not go after carbon taxes on consumers or do meaningful "damage" to their petroleum industry.

Canada has a set policy of limiting and curbing growth in it's #1 industry by GDP which is energy. Other countries aren't doing that to their #1 industries and they are actively expanding their energy reach.

The comparison of the US and their energy rich states vs Canada and it's energy provinces is mind blowing. There is no comparison at all. Everybody is to blame in this regard from the federal government and the opposition to the provinces and their leaders. We as Canadians are just stupid people. The best we can come up with is a carbon tax and telling everybody we are literally going to get rich off it while saving the planet.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Mental gymnastics is posting a tweet from a radical environmentalist, selling the 23% carbon tax increase that came today as a Canada Carbon Rebates increase, a name that had been rebranded multiple times since clearly Liberals think the issue is communication, and trying to salvage a sinking ship by using a a provincial level politician's podcast from 3 years ago while calling her Marleina.

The Liberal message in recent months has been to sell the rebate part of the carbon tax increase at all costs with little mention of the climate change part , which as you can imagine lost meaning when the Liberals did their heating oil carve out and pandering based on regional partisanship. As Gudie Hutchings once famously said: “I can tell you Atlantic Caucus was vocal with what they've heard from their constituents, and perhaps they need to elect more Liberals in the Prairies so that we can have that conversation as well”. It appears that Canadians are ready to boot the Liberal-NDP coalition government instead and just waiting for the elections to clean house.

Danielle Smith made a positive mention of the carbon tax rebate 3 years ago, an innocuous and true statement at the time. This to you and the usual suspects (who ran in as quick as they could yet again I see) nullifies everything about the carbon tax situation in 2024.

But sure, I'm doing the gymnastics and damage control, for Danielle Smith of all people, someone who I voted against and despise? You just haven't been paying attention. So your goal is to have people admit that Danielle Smith is a grifter? Ok. Smith is a grifter. Now what? How does any of this help the federal Liberal brand (or the NDP for that matter)?

This isn’t really helping your case here. You don’t have to act unhinged and race to this thread every time someone isn’t criticizing the Liberals.

[PepsiFree]

Also, it’s genuinely hilarious watching people be so dense that they claim with a completely straight face that the mood has changed around the carbon tax, citing politicians like Smith as examples of that change and not… you know… the populist grifting politicians like Smith are guilty of being a major contributor to the change.

“The perception has changed! It must be because of the tax! It couldn’t be because conservative populists are doing it on purpose!”

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

“The perception has changed! It must be because of the tax! It couldn’t be because conservative populists are doing it on purpose!”

It could be that the revenue neutral claim has fallen flat where even the PBO is advising that most Canadians will see a net loss. The carbon tax narrative is no longer working on Canadians, especially as the heating oil carve out killed the carbon climate angle (one which keeps getting omitted by those defending the tax).

https://www.pbo-dpb.ca/en/news-relea...ur-les-menages

“When both fiscal and economic impacts of the federal fuel charge are considered, we estimate that most households will see a net loss,” says PBO Yves Giroux. “Based on our analysis, most households will pay more in fuel charges and GST—as well as receiving slightly lower incomes—than they will receive in Climate Action Incentive payments.”

Wow Giroux is going to be in the doghouse for not calling it the Canada Carbon Rebate

But don't let facts get in the way of your witty sarcastic retorts. Carry on

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Also, it’s genuinely hilarious watching people be so dense that they claim with a completely straight face that the mood has changed around the carbon tax, citing politicians like Smith as examples of that change and not… you know… the populist grifting politicians like Smith are guilty of being a major contributor to the change.

“The perception has changed! It must be because of the tax! It couldn’t be because conservative populists are doing it on purpose!”

"Canada is broken" in part because people keep being told that "Canada is broken"

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by edslunch

"Canada is broken" in part because people keep being told that "Canada is broken"

I ####ing hate that phrase.

It is uttered by mouth breathers that have never been to a country that is truly broken.

[aaronck]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Danielle Smith made a positive mention of the carbon tax rebate 3 years ago, an innocuous and true statement at the time. This to you and the usual suspects (who ran in as quick as they could yet again I see) nullifies everything about the carbon tax situation in 2024.

So anything that you disagree with is an innocuous statement, got it.

You should be in politics as it operates the exact same- Say whatever you want to to get votes/ attention/ rage farm, and then change your opinion when convenient.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Firebot

It could be that the revenue neutral claim has fallen flat where even the PBO is advising that most Canadians will see a net loss. The carbon tax narrative is no longer working on Canadians, especially as the heating oil carve out killed the carbon climate angle (one which keeps getting omitted by those defending the tax).

https://www.pbo-dpb.ca/en/news-relea...ur-les-menages



Wow Giroux is going to be in the doghouse for not calling it the Canada Carbon Rebate

But don't let facts get in the way of your witty sarcastic retorts. Carry on

Sorry man, you’re just not very smart about this stuff and it’s pretty evident. I mean, you’re going to pretend “most Canadians will see a net loss” and talk about “facts” when the fact is that you’re conveniently light on the details and that the report you’re citing is talking about 2030-31, where it shows the average Canadian will actually get more in payments than it spends on the federal fuel charge (directly and indirectly) and related GST. Them “facts”?

Or, no, you’re talking about the “fiscal and economic impacts” section, right? Where it lumps employment income and investment income together with the actual fiscal component, and declares that because Joe Blow isn’t getting as good of a return on his investment into the oil sands or because even one position is phased out of that specific industry the money I get back from the rebate doesn’t count as much because, you know, we’re all part of the average!

Here’s your clown makeup. You forgot it big boy. But I guess if the average Canadian understood that report the same way you did, it makes sense.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I think clips like this may be SOMEWHAT helpful to the Liberals in this regard, but in reality I do think they are fighting an uphill battle in regards to the perception and the implementation of this.

Virtually everybody has noticed an increase in costs, inflation pressures and more. A lot of things are being blamed for this and one of them is carbon taxes, government fee's and more. Right or wrong, virtually everybody is using this to justify increases and it's hitting the pocket book bad.

You have the federal government coming along and telling Canadians how lucky they are that they have this carbon tax, and how they are WAY better off with it and how for ALMOST everybody, the rebate is higher than the actual tax being paid. In reality that isn't the case, or at least it doesn't feel like that. People ask...."If I am way better off, why not apply a carbon tax/rebate to everything so I am WAY better off than I was before? The government doesn't have an answer .

Another potential way to look at it is housing prices and values across the board. Given the rapid increase in prices for the last 20+ years, your average homeowner should STFU about things because on paper they are all rich. Making bank, rolling in dollars, lot's if of millionaires and more. In reality that isn't the case an a lot of people are really struggling, or they don't feel like they are ahead in the game. A LOT of people always talk about their home prices and what they sold their random little box for, but then are forced to upgrade into a more expensive house, a larger mortgage and more. The feeling of wealth just doesn't transfer in a lot of ways.

This idea of the wealth affect and it's transfer was one of the main ideas behind quantitative easing and the cheap money supply we had post 2001 terror attacks, 2008 financial crisis and 2020 Covid. The notion that raising asset prices, equity and stock market's, homes and more would lead to a "wealth affect" and improve the economy is hard to really see.

So when the Liberals brag about how well everybody will do with this carbon tax rebate and how they are better off, your average Canadian will see how a prime rib roast is $100, a fuel fill up is $80 in a SMALL car and their shake and bake chicken seasoning, which is just bread crumbs/seasoning, has doubled in price in 2 years. They aren't feeling rich despite the government saying so.

Interesting times all around

The purpose of the tax is not to make poor people rich.

The purpose of the tax is to cut our emissions as a nation, by punishing those who pollute more and rewarding those who pollute less.

If we're succeeding in that goal (and we are), the tax is worth it.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I am more referring to carbon taxes and reducing emissions from large emitters like China, India, the US and others.

I don't want to derail the Canadian Politics thread but sooner or later the finger pointing will become problematic for this policy. I know this is a global issue but countries like Canada think they may be making meaningful impacts but it's the big dogs in the room that will make the policy that really matters. So far they have chosen to not go after carbon taxes on consumers or do meaningful "damage" to their petroleum industry.

Canada has a set policy of limiting and curbing growth in it's #1 industry by GDP which is energy. Other countries aren't doing that to their #1 industries and they are actively expanding their energy reach.

The comparison of the US and their energy rich states vs Canada and it's energy provinces is mind blowing. There is no comparison at all. Everybody is to blame in this regard from the federal government and the opposition to the provinces and their leaders. We as Canadians are just stupid people. The best we can come up with is a carbon tax and telling everybody we are literally going to get rich off it while saving the planet.

You choose not to count the 2nd largest economy in the world when making your list?