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Old 07-23-2019, 05:28 PM   #21
Oling_Roachinen
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I don’t really get this. Yes he’s on LTIR but that doesn’t equate to “free cap space” like some think it does. They can still only exceed the cap by 10% in the off-season irrespective of Clarkson and Horton being on LTIR, so where does this leave Marner?
This may not be the case. A couple off-seasons ago, when the traditional thinking was LTIR had to happen after the season started, Lou said they were using the LTIR during the off-season. If they are using the LTIR in the off-season for these contracts, they get cap-relief just as normal LTIR. When they actually put them on the LTIR (as they want to be as close as possible to the cap) would matter.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:31 PM   #22
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So they have to wait till the season starts to sign Marner by using the LTIR cap space? If they sign him now for anything over 8 it puts them over the 10%, unless I am reading that wrong.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:31 PM   #23
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Well then. A 4th for Sparks. Insurance pays Clarkson's last million.

Neuvirth, you're in.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:31 PM   #24
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There was a bet that Dubas made with a friend that no way Clarkson finishes his contract with the Leafs organization. Now he wins!
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:35 PM   #25
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So they have to wait till the season starts to sign Marner by using the LTIR cap space? If they sign him now for anything over 8 it puts them over the 10%, unless I am reading that wrong.
But the LTIR during the off-season allows them to exceed the 10% cushion. So with some magic booking they should be able to sign him now for league max.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:36 PM   #26
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I do think contracts can be insured for specific years though, it's not an all-or-nothing type situation. Could be wrong, but it's possible this year (where he makes 1M in salary) wouldn't be insured.

Nothing concrete, but everything I'm reading says it likely is insured, but the team is still responsible for ~20% of the cost.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:39 PM   #27
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But the LTIR during the off-season allows them to exceed the 10% cushion. So with some magic booking they should be able to sign him now for league max.
I was under the impression that the 10% rule is just during the off-season, but when game 1 starts, you cant have that 10% overage.

In this case, I think for day 1 of the season, Clarkson and Horton count to the cap.

Then on that day, they are placed on LTIR, which activates in season LTIR relief of the 10Mish from those two guys.

Then immediately after that they could announce Marner's contract.

Otherwise, then I dont understand why the Hawks bothered to trade Hossa's contract... I believe it was to ensure they could start the season with the cap space, rather than once the season starts, when they have missed out on using that cap space prior to season start.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:47 PM   #28
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I was under the impression that the 10% rule is just during the off-season, but when game 1 starts, you cant have that 10% overage.

In this case, I think for day 1 of the season, Clarkson and Horton count to the cap.

Then on that day, they are placed on LTIR, which activates in season LTIR relief of the 10Mish from those two guys.

Then immediately after that they could announce Marner's contract.

Otherwise, then I dont understand why the Hawks bothered to trade Hossa's contract... I believe it was to ensure they could start the season with the cap space, rather than once the season starts, when they have missed out on using that cap space prior to season start.
Seems like LTIR can carry through the offseason for situations like Clarkson and Horton who were on LTIR the previous season and there's medical proof they will continue to be.

Wouldn't carry for a player who ended last season on LTIR but is expected to heal during the offseason.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:50 PM   #29
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Otherwise, then I dont understand why the Hawks bothered to trade Hossa's contract... I believe it was to ensure they could start the season with the cap space, rather than once the season starts, when they have missed out on using that cap space prior to season start.
LTIR isn't free cap. You can exceed the cap by the equivalent (for simplicity if you were at max cap) but you no longer bank that additional cap while the player is on the LTIR.

So if a team starts the season 4M under the cap (based on full year projection) and nothing changes, by the time they get to the trade deadline (for simplicity assume it is 3/4th of the season) they have banked 3M in cap. They can therefore get a player who would cost 3M over 1/4th of the season, or a player with a cap-hit of 12M.

Now if that same team needed to place a player on LTIR making 5M, they could replace him with 5M, sure, but they are now 'exceeding' the cap. Come the trade deadline they would not be able to acquire a player making 12M because they haven't banked any cap.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:51 PM   #30
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Seems like LTIR can carry through the offseason for situations like Clarkson and Horton who were on LTIR the previous season and there's medical proof they will continue to be.

Wouldn't carry for a player who ended last season on LTIR but is expected to heal during the offseason.
Ya, maybe Hossa's case was unique because it wasn't like his back was broken and would never heal... maybe the doctors wouldn't sign off on his "equipment allergy" being a career ending thing and he needs to be re-examined each year for LTIR purposes.

Would make sense... seems like my employer scrutinizes me just as hard when I try to use my "work allergy" to stay home on Fridays.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:58 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
LTIR isn't free cap. You can exceed the cap by the equivalent (for simplicity if you were at max cap) but you no longer bank that additional cap while the player is on the LTIR.

So if a team starts the season 4M under the cap (based on full year projection) and nothing changes, by the time they get to the trade deadline (for simplicity assume it is 3/4th of the season) they have banked 3M in cap. They can therefore get a player who would cost 3M over 1/4th of the season, or a player with a cap-hit of 12M.

Now if that same team needed to place a player on LTIR making 5M, they could replace him with 5M, sure, but they are now 'exceeding' the cap. Come the trade deadline they would not be able to acquire a player making 12M because they haven't banked any cap.
I still felt like the issue in regards to Hossa was more than that... they felt like and communicated that they couldn't start the season with that replacement player in the line-up. If the cap was $80M, they were planning on a $75M roster, plus Hossa at $5M, to get to $80M... that part is a real disadvantage... not being able to acquire a star player at the deadline isn't really that big an issue, as few teams do so anyways.
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:05 PM   #32
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It was for illustration purpose but there's other issues when you aren't banking cap space. It limits your roster moves. You can't bring up a player making more than the player you're sending down. If there's a minor injury to a player and he doesn't go on LTIR himself, you can't bring up someone to replace him for a bit. If there's multiple injuries that's how you end up playing short handed. Any bonus you pay out on an ELC gets deferred to next season. There is a lot of reasons to avoid using the LTIR.

However, if you're already forced to be using the LTIR might as well go ham like Toronto has done.
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:18 PM   #33
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FWIW, when the Flames did this with Smid a few years back, they got their day 1 roster as close to the cap ceiling as possible so that when they put Smid on LTIR they maximized the amount of space they could utilize in season....

If what you are saying is an accurate representation of how the LTIR mechanism works, it seems weird that they would do that (basically starting the season with zero ability to bank any space, and they had quite a few call-ups early on.

Still feels like there isn't a clear cut analysis on how exactly it works, and some of the real world examples feel contradictory to some of these points.

Anyways - I appreciate your illustrations, just trying to find a way to make sense of it in a way I can apply to these specific examples. Thanks for your thoughts.
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:20 PM   #34
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FWIW, when the Flames did this with Smid a few years back, they got their day 1 roster as close to the cap ceiling as possible so that when they put Smid on LTIR they maximized the amount of space they could utilize in season....

If what you are saying is an accurate representation of how the LTIR mechanism works, it seems weird that they would do that (basically starting the season with zero ability to bank any space, and they had quite a few call-ups early on.

Still feels like there isn't a clear cut analysis on how exactly it works, and some of the real world examples feel contradictory to some of these points.

Anyways - I appreciate your illustrations, just trying to find a way to make sense of it in a way I can apply to these specific examples. Thanks for your thoughts.

For Smid's LTIR, wasn't that when we signed Grossman, cause he would be the only one that would accept $600k to play?
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:21 PM   #35
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I wonder what this move means for Subban.

Is he on the outs in Vegas or was Sparks simply a move to get a goalie for the AHL? They both spent the full season last year in the NHL and had very similar stats. Subban's GAA was a little lower and he played more total minutes, but their SV%s were the same and both were below .500 goalies on playoff teams.

Maybe McPhee just wants some competition in camp.
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:27 PM   #36
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FWIW, when the Flames did this with Smid a few years back, they got their day 1 roster as close to the cap ceiling as possible so that when they put Smid on LTIR they maximized the amount of space they could utilize in season....
I think Smid was making 3.5M. The cap, for example let's say, was 70M.

They wanted to get to 70M, let's say they got to 69.9M. Now they put Smid on the LTIR and they can exceed the cap and could go to 73.4M. Sure, they wouldn't be banking while Smid was on the LTIR, but you still want the most cap available. And, if there was a reason for them to drop below 70M, some trade for example, they would start banking again while still having the option to get back to 73.4M.

There's no reason to use LTIR if you aren't exceeding or expecting to exceed the cap. If you are using LTIR, you want to be as close to the cap as possible when you put a player on it.

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Old 07-23-2019, 06:31 PM   #37
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I wonder what this move means for Subban.

Is he on the outs in Vegas or was Sparks simply a move to get a goalie for the AHL? They both spent the full season last year in the NHL and had very similar stats. Subban's GAA was a little lower and he played more total minutes, but their SV%s were the same and both were below .500 goalies on playoff teams.

Maybe McPhee just wants some competition in camp.

I think the job is Subban's to lose, as he was better the season before, but Sparks maybe gives a little competition, and at the worst he's a very good AHL goalie.
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:41 PM   #38
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Clarkson also only has $1 million in salary left to be paid out (which may also be covered by insurance).

Sparks was going to be paid $750k to play in the AHL.

Leafs are already going to be using LTIR with Horton, so cap hit didn't really matter.

4th round pick for essentially nothing.
I thought they couldn't move the contract amount to LTIR until AFTER the season starts, no?? they can only go over the Cap (in the meantime) by a certain %, so doesn't this impact their ability to sign Marner before the season starts?

EDIT : already answered by several posts made before mine... thanks
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:44 PM   #39
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I think Smid was making 3.5M. The cap, for example let's say, was 70M.

They wanted to get to 70M, let's say they got to 69.9M. Now they put Smid on the LTIR and they can exceed the cap and could go to 73.4M. Sure, they wouldn't be banking while Smid was on the LTIR, but you still want the most cap available. And, if there was a reason for them to drop below 70M, some trade for example, they would start banking again while still having the option to get back to 73.4M.

There's no reason to use LTIR if you aren't exceeding or expecting to exceed the cap. If you are using LTIR, you want to be as close to the cap as possible when you put a player on it.


I believe they were able to bank the space throughout the year... like I think in your example their new cap was 73.4, and they were able to utilize as they saw fit by making the transaction the way they did.


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Old 07-23-2019, 07:24 PM   #40
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According to Capfriendly:


There is still much that can happen between now and Oct 1, but by acquiring David Clarkson's contract, the #Leafs could now build a roster with a total projected cap hit as high as $92,050,000, and then place both Horton & Clarkson on LTIR to cover the $10.55M difference. https://t.co/fdTTVz90zB

— CapFriendly (@CapFriendly) July 23, 2019
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