Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 08-22-2019, 02:30 PM   #41
VladtheImpaler
Franchise Player
 
VladtheImpaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Rather than typing it all out again, can we just cut & paste the 2 (?) Lucic trade threads into this one? Saying it all for the 3rd time seems a bit much.
__________________
Cordially as always,
Vlad the Impaler

Please check out http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...94#post3726494

VladtheImpaler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2019, 02:41 PM   #42
GreenLantern2814
Franchise Player
 
GreenLantern2814's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper View Post
Even with "bad" linemates, Lucic still managed to finish 6th among Oiler forwards in scoring which really speaks to their lack of depth more so than anything else. But with 3rd/4th line minutes, I think Lucic managed to muster up a respectable position in the Oilers line up.

I'm probably in the minority here, but I think Lucic will do great this coming season. He's the type of player who can't necessarily drive play himself, but with the 2nd highest scoring team in the league, I could see his production improving. I've watched a few Oiler games this summer, specifically just for Lucic's shifts and I have to say, he is not a bad player. Definitely overpaid, but still very effective.
On any normal roster, it's going to be tough to produce points on the 4th line. On the Edmonton Oilers, you are playing with guys who do not belong in the league, below three other guys who do not belong in the league.

Besot by AHL calibre players, Lucic was only -9. The Tenderness was -13. Brodziak was -14. Guys, I think Kyle Brodziak might be done.

Lucic is going to play with Mark Jankowski or Derek Ryan as his centre, and one of Bennett/Mangiapane as the other winger - a speedy guy who creates havoc. Then you add Lucic cruising in like a bowling ball, and you've got the makings of a reasonably effective line.

Milan Lucic didn't work with Connor McDavid. The Voyager spacecraft saw that coming, and it doesn't know anything about hockey.

Put him with competent players that can cycle the puck and he's might surprise a lot of people.
GreenLantern2814 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2019, 04:09 PM   #43
Oil Stain
Franchise Player
 
Oil Stain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper View Post
Even with "bad" linemates, Lucic still managed to finish 6th among Oiler forwards in scoring which really speaks to their lack of depth more so than anything else. But with 3rd/4th line minutes, I think Lucic managed to muster up a respectable position in the Oilers line up.
Lucic didn't actually play those minutes though.

He played 940 minutes at even strength last year. 375 minutes with one of McDavid, Draisaitl or RNH.

That's 40% of his ES icetime with one of the Oilers few good forwards.

Lucic was also on the first PP with McDavid, Draisaitl, and RNH for half the season.

To say that Lucic scored 20 points from a bottom six role last season isn't accurate.

I think if the Flames are looking for a bounce back candidate from former Oilers, Talbit is much more likely to have a strong season.

Last edited by Oil Stain; 08-22-2019 at 04:18 PM.
Oil Stain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2019, 04:29 PM   #44
midniteowl
First Line Centre
 
midniteowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814 View Post
On any normal roster, it's going to be tough to produce points on the 4th line. On the Edmonton Oilers, you are playing with guys who do not belong in the league, below three other guys who do not belong in the league.

Besot by AHL calibre players, Lucic was only -9. The Tenderness was -13. Brodziak was -14. Guys, I think Kyle Brodziak might be done.

Lucic is going to play with Mark Jankowski or Derek Ryan as his centre, and one of Bennett/Mangiapane as the other winger - a speedy guy who creates havoc. Then you add Lucic cruising in like a bowling ball, and you've got the makings of a reasonably effective line.

Milan Lucic didn't work with Connor McDavid. The Voyager spacecraft saw that coming, and it doesn't know anything about hockey.

Put him with competent players that can cycle the puck and he's might surprise a lot of people.

For some reasons, this put a big smile on my face.
midniteowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2019, 05:25 PM   #45
HighLifeMan
Scoring Winger
 
HighLifeMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Stain View Post
Lucic didn't actually play those minutes though.

He played 940 minutes at even strength last year. 375 minutes with one of McDavid, Draisaitl or RNH.

That's 40% of his ES icetime with one of the Oilers few good forwards.

Lucic was also on the first PP with McDavid, Draisaitl, and RNH for half the season.

To say that Lucic scored 20 points from a bottom six role last season isn't accurate.

I think if the Flames are looking for a bounce back candidate from former Oilers, Talbit is much more likely to have a strong season.
43% of Milan's total PP time during the entire year came during the first 11 games of the season. He was moved off of the top PP and down the Oilers lineup after the first month of the season - and from that point on Lucic did not sniff top six minutes (playing just 5 games with more than 15 minutes of ice time over the remaining 67 games). The talent he played with outside of the "big three" was absolutely AHL level and his production should come as no surprise as a result of that. Regardless of that his time with the "big" three almost came exclusively with RNH who was quite frankly caved in at even strength all year.

Look at the first half of the season for a player like Zack Kassian who prior to being placed on a line with McDavid had just 2 goals, 1 assist, and 3 points in his first 36 games of the year.. Producing in that bottom six (or nine for that matter) is next to impossible and expecting anyone to consistently do so with that supporting cast is laughable.
HighLifeMan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to HighLifeMan For This Useful Post:
Old 08-22-2019, 05:33 PM   #46
Fighting Banana Slug
First Line Centre
 
Fighting Banana Slug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

I have zero expectations that Lucic will be any good this year. The saving grace is that it would be almost impossible to be worse than Neal last year, and we still save a bit of cap space in the process.We were a good team with boat anchor Neal, and we will be a good team with boat anchor Lucic.

The one, tiny sliver of hope I hold on to is how this deal went down: With some apparent desperation on the part of Tre to get rid of Neal, perhaps it was clear that Neal was so toxic to the room going forward that this will be an addition by subtraction. Addition by subtraction isn't usually a great way to improve a team, especially with $5-6M players, but this is where we are at.
__________________
From HFBoard oiler fan, in analyzing MacT's management:
O.K. there has been a lot of talk on whether or not MacTavish has actually done a good job for us, most fans on this board are very basic in their analysis and I feel would change their opinion entirely if the team was successful.
Fighting Banana Slug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2019, 05:56 PM   #47
Classic_Sniper
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Classic_Sniper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Stain View Post
Lucic didn't actually play those minutes though.

He played 940 minutes at even strength last year. 375 minutes with one of McDavid, Draisaitl or RNH.

That's 40% of his ES icetime with one of the Oilers few good forwards.

Lucic was also on the first PP with McDavid, Draisaitl, and RNH for half the season.

To say that Lucic scored 20 points from a bottom six role last season isn't accurate.

I think if the Flames are looking for a bounce back candidate from former Oilers, Talbit is much more likely to have a strong season.


I didnít say he played a bottom 6 role, I said he played bottom 6 minutes (13 minutes per game) and he did in fact finish top 6 in points among Oiler forwards, so it is indeed a pretty accurate statement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Classic_Sniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2019, 06:39 PM   #48
Strange Brew
Franchise Player
 
Strange Brew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Exp:
Default

It would be impossible to be worse than Neal on the ice. He contributed zilch. The whole toxic thing I just don’t know about as it became a thing after he was traded.
Strange Brew is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Strange Brew For This Useful Post:
Old 08-22-2019, 06:48 PM   #49
Oil Stain
Franchise Player
 
Oil Stain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighLifeMan View Post
43% of Milan's total PP time during the entire year came during the first 11 games of the season. He was moved off of the top PP and down the Oilers lineup after the first month of the season - and from that point on Lucic did not sniff top six minutes (playing just 5 games with more than 15 minutes of ice time over the remaining 67 games). The talent he played with outside of the "big three" was absolutely AHL level and his production should come as no surprise as a result of that. Regardless of that his time with the "big" three almost came exclusively with RNH who was quite frankly caved in at even strength all year.

Look at the first half of the season for a player like Zack Kassian who prior to being placed on a line with McDavid had just 2 goals, 1 assist, and 3 points in his first 36 games of the year.. Producing in that bottom six (or nine for that matter) is next to impossible and expecting anyone to consistently do so with that supporting cast is laughable.
His production was terrible both in the top six and outside it.

If you want to compare Lucic to Kassian at this point its probably a fair comparison.

Lucic had half his points last season assisted or scored by the big 3 forwards in Edmonton. He got more leash than he should have. I have a hard time seeing him be more productive in a further reduced role in Calgary.

He'll give an honest effort though, and is still a terrifying human being.
Oil Stain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2019, 08:47 PM   #50
rhino
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dammage79 View Post
All Lucic has to do is not be as disengaged as Neal was last year. I'm honestly shocked that Neal was such a bad fit that after year #1 he was dealt for a worse boat anchor.

We are stuck with Lucic for better or for worse. Just give a true honest effort night in and night out and I can live with this strange reality we live in where Lucic is a Flame.
I donít believe effort is ever an issue with Lucic, I think he will quickly become a favourite of Flames fans. Forget the contract dollars and appreciate the fact he will go through a wall for his teammates.
rhino is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rhino For This Useful Post:
Old 08-22-2019, 09:32 PM   #51
Bourque's Twin
First Line Centre
 
Bourque's Twin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhino View Post
I donít believe effort is ever an issue with Lucic, I think he will quickly become a favourite of Flames fans. Forget the contract dollars and appreciate the fact he will go through a wall for his teammates.
Which is exactly why this is a good trade.

Nealís floor is what he was last year. A locker room disruption and useless in all facets of the game.

Lucicís floor is almost no point production (same as Neal) but effort, physicality and a good locker room guy.

I bet Iím one of the most optimistic about this trade but I think Lucic is going to be a key player for the Flames like Chris Simon was in 2004. 25-35 point guy who can play almost anywhere in the lineup and is one of the most feared guys in the league. Itís exactly what the Flames need. They have 4 of the top forwards in the NHL who can score all the points.
Bourque's Twin is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bourque's Twin For This Useful Post:
Old 08-22-2019, 11:05 PM   #52
monkeyman
First Line Centre
 
monkeyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

When you look at it from a point perspective, Neal only has 4 more points than Lucic over the last 4 years, so it's almost a wash. Lucic however has something that is extremely rare in todays NHL, the ability to intimidate guys just by being on the ice. That alone makes him a rare commodity and why this trade is already a win.
I'm also very optimistic about this trade.
__________________
The Delhi police have announced the formation of a crack team dedicated to nabbing the elusive 'Monkey Man' and offered a reward for his -- or its -- capture.
monkeyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2019, 12:55 AM   #53
crapshoot
First Line Centre
 
crapshoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Sweden
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper View Post
McDavid can turn junk into gold. I don't think Neal could've asked for a better center than McDavid. A guy who can draw double teams and find open teammates ala Neal. I think that's where Neal is most effective, when he's open and free to unleash his shot. Too bad he's terrible everywhere else.

My hope is he actually hurts McDavid's game especially on the defensive end so it ends up being a wash. So if Neal ends up netting 20-30 goals, maybe McDavid ends up as a minus player.

That is, if he is able to get open anywhere where it actually counts. There are very few examples of Neal actually managing to find a good spot to shoot from last season. In fact, the only place on the ice he was regularly open was in his own defensive zone, just cruising around on his own watching the play. He won't score a lot of goals from his own zone, that's for sure.
crapshoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2019, 02:55 AM   #54
My2Cents
Backup Goalie
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Singapore
Exp:
Default

Anything above a bench warmer and I will call it a huge success. Bench warmer for less money than last years bench warmer is a win in my books.
My2Cents is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2019, 10:25 AM   #55
Monahammer
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Monahammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: St. Albert (Calgary-Jr.)
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crapshoot View Post
That is, if he is able to get open anywhere where it actually counts. There are very few examples of Neal actually managing to find a good spot to shoot from last season. In fact, the only place on the ice he was regularly open was in his own defensive zone, just cruising around on his own watching the play. He won't score a lot of goals from his own zone, that's for sure.
I would actually go further and say that we saw plenty of evidence last season that Neal no longer has that shooting ability.

If people are confident in saying that all Neal had left really was his shot, what I think we should be saying is that Neal has nothing at all left to give.
Monahammer is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Monahammer For This Useful Post:
Old 08-23-2019, 04:43 PM   #56
Robbob
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Exp:
Default

So I have been thinking about this lately. What would his stat line have to look like to not be a super negative value contract? What would it take to make it palatable?

Looking at some of the players last year and their stat lines:
Tom Wilson 5.16M - 40 points in 66 games (probably the high water mark)
JT Miller 5.25M - 47 points in 75 games
Alex Kilorn 4.45M - 40 points in 80 games
Justin Abdelkader 4.25M - 19 points in 71 games (low bar as this contract is bleh)
Nazem Kadri 4.5M - 44 points in 73 games

I think all will play a bigger role on their team, but if Lucic can get to 30-40 points does that take the sting of his 5.25M cap hit? Is a 10-15 points more from last season asking for too much?
Robbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2019, 06:47 PM   #57
Robo
#1 Goaltender
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Edmonton,AB
Exp:
Default

Calling it now lucic will score the Stanley cup gwg causing Oilers fans to lose their minds
Robo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2019, 11:25 AM   #58
Bingo
Owner
 
Bingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Brew View Post
It would be impossible to be worse than Neal on the ice. He contributed zilch. The whole toxic thing I just donít know about as it became a thing after he was traded.
Has it become a thing?

I think there's a fairly solid assumption that they wanted him gone at almost any price. That could be due to a room problem, or it could simply be they didn't see him getting top six minutes and felt four years of not seeing that opportunity was bound to effect his attitude, and then the room?

I certainly haven't seen any proclamations or certainties from anyone on the room stuff.
Bingo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2019, 11:42 AM   #59
Bingo
Owner
 
Bingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbob View Post
So I have been thinking about this lately. What would his stat line have to look like to not be a super negative value contract? What would it take to make it palatable?

Looking at some of the players last year and their stat lines:
Tom Wilson 5.16M - 40 points in 66 games (probably the high water mark)
JT Miller 5.25M - 47 points in 75 games
Alex Kilorn 4.45M - 40 points in 80 games
Justin Abdelkader 4.25M - 19 points in 71 games (low bar as this contract is bleh)
Nazem Kadri 4.5M - 44 points in 73 games

I think all will play a bigger role on their team, but if Lucic can get to 30-40 points does that take the sting of his 5.25M cap hit? Is a 10-15 points more from last season asking for too much?
I think any value comparison has to go back to Ryan Reeves.

Reeves is making $2.75M this year and had 20 points last year, his career best by a wide amount.

He's essentially a 12-15 point player, and that might even be a stretch.

If Lucic can provide the same role in Calgary that Reeves plays in Vegas then he's overpaid by $2.75M (double the salary).

Lucic had 20 points last year, same as Reeves, so you could just stop there and call them the same. His history has a .56 ppg average (45 points), which I think we can all agree is unlikely. Two seasons ago he had 35 points, which is maybe more likely.

A 35 point version of Reeves has value, so it's $2.75M + ?

+ $1M
+ $2M

that seems high.

lets say $1.5M. Now you have Lucic, the bottom six enforcer with 35 points making $4.25M, over paid by $1.25

His intimidation value is the trick. Neal is a goal scorer and does nothing else. He doesn't agitate, fight, play good defense, drive a line, or lead from what we saw. If he's not scoring he's overpaid by the the difference between his salary (in this case $5.75M + $0.75M Lucic retained) less the value of a replacement player ... roughly $5.5M

If Neal gets back to 20 they don't have a problem.

It's going to be an interesting season to watch.
Bingo is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Bingo For This Useful Post:
Old 08-24-2019, 03:20 PM   #60
Snuffleupagus
First Line Centre
 
Snuffleupagus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Exp:
Default

If Lucic can get even 25 points and help make his teammates play bigger I'll be a happy camper, I'm usually not a guy to like violence but I can't wait to see him go totally nuts on someone who takes liberties on Gaudreau.
Snuffleupagus is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Snuffleupagus For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:34 AM.

Calgary Flames
2017-18




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016