How would you build this team?

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

It all starts with: Re-signing Gaudreau

If Gaudreau is gone:

- Package Tkachuk and Monahan to grab either Chychrun/3rd OA + another significant asset from AZ, 2nd OA+Zacha+ something else from NJ, or 7th OA/Sanderson ++ from Ottawa. Maybe Smith as a middle pairing LD from NJ to go along with the theme of a top pick in this draft and/or LD player/prospect to round out the top 4 in Calgary, and another solid piece to help the retool.

- Use the excess cap space to grab some UFA’s like Forsberg, Kadri, Malkin, Giroux, etc. Short term deals for some vets that have experience in the playoffs. Sutter could have a say in some of this. If we suck a lot without Gaudreau and Tkachuk out of the lineup (which is likely), sell high on Lindholm/Markstrom/other vets and begin a rebuild. The fans imo would embrace it.

If we re-sign Gaudreau:

- attempt to re-sign Tkachuk too. He needs to be kept too for 6-8 years on a 9-10m deal and continue to give Calgary a top 5 first line in the league. Gaudreau, Lindholm, and Tkachuk must be kept together at all costs if we are able to retain our star wingers.

- Trade Monahan: this has to happen regardless. Love the guy, especially during his early years with us. But, we need his cap space to remain competitive. We need that cap space to sign Gaudreau and Tkachuk to their new deals. And that’s not even accounting for Mangiapane and Kylington who need raises. If not Monahan then Lucic needs to be dealt. We can’t afford to have both on the team anymore. I remember the Pens wanting some physicality so if Lucic+for Zucker ever worked I’d be all for it. We can get Ruzicka and others to play a mean game.

With Bob McKenzie's lastest rankings and Slafkovsky being ranked #1 I have a feeling that 2nd overall won't be available. Bob's ranking are based on what head scouts for each team have players ranked and I think that Montreal is going to take Slafkovsky with the 1st pick and Wright goes 2nd overall.

NJ will want a boat load if this happens. Tkachuk and Hanifin for Zacha and 2nd pick might be something they would consider even if Wright doesn't slip. Monahan might be able to be thrown in but I can't see NJ thinking he's worth a whole lot and Tkachuk only gets dealt if the Flames can't sign him so good luck getting 2nd overall and other quality pieces

[mennoknight]

probably poorly, I'm pretty stupid and bad with money

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I agree that Tkachuk wants to be paid. But I think Gaudreau gets his points with generally any top line quality line mates whereas I think Chucky is normally a PPG guy on most teams top line (I used St Louis because that’s always the rumour).

I agree but Tkachuk's age is a big factor and only 1 RFA year left I can see Tkachuk taking a risk on this contract knowing this isn't his last big deal. So if you want Tkachuk for $9 - $10 mil and 6 to 8 years you can't think it will be for $1.5 to $2 mil less per year than Johnny who is 29 signing to almost 37 when Tkachuk will be 24 - 32 on a 8 year deal. All prime years he will want much closer to the same cap hit if not the same or more.

If we want Tkachuk for that much less it probably is a 3 - 5 year deal years so he can get another big deal when he is 27 to 29

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

With Bob McKenzie's lastest rankings and Slafkovsky being ranked #1 I have a feeling that 2nd overall won't be available. Bob's ranking are based on what head scouts for each team have players ranked and I think that Montreal is going to take Slafkovsky with the 1st pick and Wright goes 2nd overall.

NJ will want a boat load if this happens. Tkachuk and Hanifin for Zacha and 2nd pick might be something they would consider even if Wright doesn't slip. Monahan might be able to be thrown in but I can't see NJ thinking he's worth a whole lot and Tkachuk only gets dealt if the Flames can't sign him so good luck getting 2nd overall and other quality pieces

Disagree on having to offer Hanifin.

If Wright slips to 2, then I am A okay with Tkachuk for Wright straight up. Unless Pastrnak is available for 2nd overall Tkachuk would be the only star winger available. And Chicago wants too much for DeBrincat.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

I agree but Tkachuk's age is a big factor and only 1 RFA year left I can see Tkachuk taking a risk on this contract knowing this isn't his last big deal. So if you want Tkachuk for $9 - $10 mil and 6 to 8 years you can't think it will be for $1.5 to $2 mil less per year than Johnny who is 29 signing to almost 37 when Tkachuk will be 24 - 32 on a 8 year deal. All prime years he will want much closer to the same cap hit if not the same or more.

If we want Tkachuk for that much less it probably is a 3 - 5 year deal years so he can get another big deal when he is 27 to 29

I’m pretty willing to let Chicky go rather than overpay him long term. With his wheels the scoring can go pretty suddenly. And he’s not particularly helpful when he’s not scoring.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I’m pretty willing to let Chicky go rather than overpay him long term. With his wheels the scoring can go pretty suddenly. And he’s not particularly helpful when he’s not scoring.

I agree. I'd be open to signing Gaudreau and trading Tkachuk but no way we land 2nd overall pick for him unless it's a sign and trade deal. Even then why would any team part ways with the assets being suggested unless Tkachuk signed a team friendly contract or 8 years.

I'd be shocked if Tkachuk signed an 8 year deal. 6 max but more likely 3 to 5 years with a 3 or 4 years being most likely with the cap likely going up big in 3 years with his age being perfect to get another huge deal as a UFA when he is 27/28 years old

So if we trade Tkachuk we need to be realistic that the return will probably be less than 2nd overall or young dmen with great contracts and 3rd overall or we package negative value contracts a with him for top 5 picks and good young RFAs who can be resigned for reasonable contracts.

[topfiverecords]

surferguy - sureLoss - getBak
Scroopy - Sliver - TheScorpion
Cecil - Fuzz - Gaskal
Puppet Guy - Paperbagger’14 - 81MC
djsFlames

undercoverbrother - Huntingwhale
PepsiFree - Textcritic
Jiri - Reggie D
Dion

Jiri
Locke

[timbit]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

surferguy - sureLoss - getBak
Scroopy - Sliver - TheScorpion
Cecil - Fuzz - Gaskal
Puppet Guy - Paperbagger’14 - 81MC
djsFlames

undercoverbrother - Huntingwhale
PepsiFree - Textcritic
Jiri - Reggie D
Dion

Jiri
Locke

Jiri is a talented sonuvagun....but hold your horses.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

surferguy - sureLoss - getBak

Scroopy - Sliver - TheScorpion

Cecil - Fuzz - Gaskal

Puppet Guy - Paperbagger’14 - 81MC

djsFlames



undercoverbrother - Huntingwhale

PepsiFree - Textcritic

Jiri - Reggie D

Dion



Jiri

Locke

Wait...is Jiri playing on the third pair as well as in goal?

Also, I can see that PepsiFree will have his hands full covering for his partner's gawd-awful skating and backchecking. That guy is a consumate cherry-picker.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Depends on how honest Matt and his agent are with themselves. How many points do they think they get absent Gaudreau? On say, St. Louis?

I know you only used STL as an example, but they scored 18 more goals than CGY last year and had 4 PPG+ players, and 4 more between 57-60 pts, then Saad at 49 pts makes 9 forwards as their top 9 scorers.

4. Mangi 55pts
5. Andersson 50
6. Hanifin 48
7. Backlund 39
8. Coleman 33
9. Dubé 32

STL also outscored CGY by 13 and 15 goals the previous 2 years; CGY outscored them by 42 in '18-19 so it's nearly even over the last 4 years.


The Tkachuk situation is a particularly tricky nut to crack in terms of his trade value signed vs. unsigned

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by timbit

Jiri is a talented sonuvagun....but hold your horses.

Someone's jealous they got left off the team

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I know you only used STL as an example, but they scored 18 more goals than CGY last year and had 4 PPG+ players, and 4 more between 57-60 pts, then Saad at 49 pts makes 9 forwards as their top 9 scorers.

4. Mangi 55pts
5. Andersson 50
6. Hanifin 48
7. Backlund 39
8. Coleman 33
9. Dubé 32

STL also outscored CGY by 13 and 15 goals the previous 2 years; CGY outscored them by 42 in '18-19 so it's nearly even over the last 4 years.


The Tkachuk situation is a particularly tricky nut to crack in terms of his trade value signed vs. unsigned

St. Louis is deep. I’m just saying they don’t have a guy like Gaudreau to feed Tkachuk. They are a team of PPG type guys. So while Tkachuk would help them, I think his days of 100 points would be over. Same for him on a bunch of teams.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by ah123

Since this is a quiet time, might be fun to do this…

You are the new GM of the Flames starting immediately. I am curious how people would build the team

Scenario 1:
Ownership mandate is to build a team which will maximize revenue every year for the next five years. Winning the cup would be nice, but isn’t the primary goal


Scenario 2:
Ownership mandate is to build a team which will be a consistent contender. Revenues are secondary for the next couple of years while team gets to contender status

I'll answer both:

Scenario 1:

This is what Flames ownership is mandating right now.
I wouldn't take the position
(until I found out how much money they were offering)

Scenario 2:

Firstly, try to sign Gaudreau. If that ship hasn't already sailed.

then:

Scortched earth. Unfortunately it's largely too late, even for this.

Trade Gaudreau's rights (should have happened 3 years ago, sigh)

Trade Tkachuk, anyone else of value, pretty much, mostly for picks/prospects

Even our prospects: For the right deal, I'd trade our forward prospects, for D and G prospects and/or picks. Reason being, this is a long process and the forwards will mature too fast for it.

With regards to the above: It doesn't mean I'd do aweful deals, you still look for deals where you get value back. Sadly, that will now be hard/impossible with Gaudreau.


Burn it for Bedard.

But not entirely. Now pull a Vegas and sign tonnes of free agents, prospects never given a chance, etc. Go very heavy on signing young D, goalies, and developing them or at least giving them a chance.

Make a team rule never to sell a draft pick without getting picks/prospects back, or unless cup favorites.

Put together an actual development system that is taken seriously.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Wait...is Jiri playing on the third pair as well as in goal?

Also, I can see that PepsiFree will have his hands full covering for his partner's gawd-awful skating and backchecking. That guy is a consumate cherry-picker.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

Yes, he’s that good.

PepsiFree seems like he’d be up for the challenge.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

I agree that Gaudreau is better but Johnny also got 115 playing with Lindholm and Tkachuk. How many points does he get if Sutter splits that line up all year?

My point was more that some suggest Johnny isn't worth $11 mil per year on a 8 year deal. IMO he's not worth $11 mil on a 3 year deal and if Johnny gets $11 mil it will impact Tkachuk's contract. 29 year old Tkachuk will be better than 34 year old Johnny IMO so if you want Tkachuk at $9 - $10 mil you can't give Johnny $11 mil and good chance Tkachuk isn't signing for 6 to 8 years at $9 - $10 mil when he is 24. 5 years max so he can get an 8 year deal when he is 29/30.

Tkachuk's contract is somewhat irrelevant, as he's probably leaving as soon as he hits UFA and won't be here long-term regardless of whatever the Flames do.

Given the Flames' depth upfront this season, Johnny is still PPG (at minimum) if Sutter splits up that line. For reference:

He put up 99 points with Monahan and Ferland.
He put up 84 points with Monahan and Hudler
He put up what would have been 69 points over a full-season hard carrying Monahan's corpse and a NHL tweener like Brett Ritchie.

It's pretty conclusive that Johnny is PPG with decent linemates and the best winger in the league with good linemates.

Any UFA-eligible player of that quality is going to cost ~$10-11M long-term. As long as Johnny doesn't suffer a major injury, he should age as well someone like Denis Savard, who was still pretty good at being evasive in his mid-30s in a tougher era for small guys and after losing a good amount of his speed.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Tkachuk's contract is somewhat irrelevant, as he's probably leaving as soon as he hits UFA and won't be here long-term regardless of whatever the Flames do.

Given the Flames' depth upfront this season, Johnny is still PPG (at minimum) if Sutter splits up that line. For reference:

He put up 99 points with Monahan and Ferland.
He put up 84 points with Monahan and Hudler
He put up what would have been 69 points over a full-season hard carrying Monahan's corpse and a NHL tweener like Brett Ritchie.

It's pretty conclusive that Johnny is PPG with decent linemates and the best winger in the league with good linemates.

Any UFA-eligible player of that quality is going to cost ~$10-11M long-term. As long as Johnny doesn't suffer a major injury, he should age as well someone like Denis Savard, who was still pretty good at being evasive in his mid-30s in a tougher era for small guys and after losing a good amount of his speed.

Pretty sure the 99 points was with Monahan and Lindholm not Ferland. Monahan before injuries was a good player and Lindholm was a very underrated player when the Flames picked him up.

Tkachuk also was on that PP and was over a PPG.

I get that Gaudreau carries the offence, but people are blind if they don't think Tkachuk contributes to Johnny's success. It wasn't long ago a majority of Flames fans were annointing Tkachuk as they best player on the team and the next captain. Johnny has a huge year and everyone is on the band wagon that he's as good as it gets and Tkachuk is just a mooch now.

Let's not forget Lindholm too as he contributes a ton to both their success as well.

Once again, I'm ok to trade Tkachuk but I think people are dead wrong if they think Tkachuk would sign for 8 years along side Johnny for $1.5 to $2 mil less than Johnny. If he's getting that much less it's because he's setting up for next contract on a short term deal.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Depends on how honest Matt and his agent are with themselves. How many points do they think they get absent Gaudreau? On say, St. Louis?

How many players and their agents have ever said “ yes, I know I got 105 points, but I suggest you pay me like I scored only 80”?

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

surferguy - sureLoss - getBak
Scroopy - Sliver - TheScorpion
Cecil - Fuzz - Gaskal
Puppet Guy - Paperbagger’14 - 81MC
djsFlames

undercoverbrother - Huntingwhale
PepsiFree - Textcritic
Jiri - Reggie D
Dion

Jiri
Locke

This easily gets us Bedard next year!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

How many players and their agents have ever said “ yes, I know I got 105 points, but I suggest you pay me like I scored only 80”?

I’m not talking about what Tkachuk wants or is asking for. I’m talking about how many points he’d get on another team. This discussion started with someone saying he’d want similar money to JG on the basis they were close in points. My sole point is that IF he was honest with himself Tkachuk would see he isn’t an equivalent player.

I fully expect Tkachuk to chase the most money possible.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I’m not talking about what Tkachuk wants or is asking for. I’m talking about how many points he’d get on another team. This discussion started with someone saying he’d want similar money to JG on the basis they were close in points. My sole point is that IF he was honest with himself Tkachuk would see he isn’t an equivalent player.

I fully expect Tkachuk to chase the most money possible.

He will want similar money to Johnny based on his points (and his age).

And I don't see what his personal view of what he's likely to do in the future would negatively affect the money he chases. In fact, if he thinks this year is his high water mark) and there are great arguments that it might be), it gives him even more motivation to chase the big immediate money.