Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 06-23-2022, 06:39 PM   #21
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

I'm familiar with Eavor, but it definitely has it's challenges. There are a lot of experimental ideas, and maybe one of them works well. I'm just saying we don't have easy geothermal that we can plug into to generate electricity, which is the impression people seem to have around it. We aren't all Iceland. I think their is potential in district energy solutions for heating and cooling though. Just not so much indivdual homes, not at a reasonable price, anyway.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Press Level View Post
He has a blue checkmark next to his name, therefore his opinion is important.
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2022, 11:57 AM   #22
Mathgod
Franchise Player
 
Mathgod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Exp:
Default

Have a look, this guy installed his own system and it didn't cost him that much. Those who have some know-how can save a lot of money.

__________________
Mathgod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2022, 12:21 PM   #23
Azure
Had an idea!
 
Azure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Exp:
Default

Loop systems are still expensive. The price of the heat pump compressors have gone up 50% + the last couple years.

Here in Manitoba it costs $5000 per ton of heating & cooling capacity to do an open loop water to air geothermal. That is installed.

I'd imagine it would cost 30% more to do closed loop water to air.

However it is extremely cost effective long term with energy savings.

Over 20 years, for a 90 ton system (what we are installing), we will save almost $2 million in heating & cooling costs compared to propane. Almost $5k to $8k per month. This is with current propane prices.

Other options for heating would be natural gas or electric heat.
Other cooling options would be air to air heat pumps, propane, natural gas.

Natural gas we'd have to bring in a line ($500k cost), but if the line existed and we could just hookup, we calculated water to water geothermal to save $500k to $750k over 20 years with the current price of natural gas.

For electric we'd save $250k to $300k over 20 years with water to water geothermal compared to electric heat. Still have to do a cooling source.

So yes, it is effective, but expensive up front. Payback is better if you have a bigger facility.

We have a big water source so we can do heating & cooling. If you have no water source to do heating, not sure what else you could do in the winter outside of electric, natural gas or propane. Air to air heat pumps for heating are not effective in -30 C.

Last edited by Azure; 06-24-2022 at 01:04 PM.
Azure is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Azure For This Useful Post:
Old 06-24-2022, 12:56 PM   #24
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathgod View Post
Have a look, this guy installed his own system and it didn't cost him that much. Those who have some know-how can save a lot of money.
So he recommends at least an acre for a closed loop system, and the drawbacks of an open loop make it not usable in Calgary, anyway.

"Each tonne of cooling/heating power I have requires 600 ft of pipe." So that's 7 120 foot trenches for his place. So sure, if you have an acreage, this might be a solution. You also need to be bellow the frost line, and deeper to have much heating return.

He said it would cost 30-40K installed, he did it for $17k USD, but his own labour, and he had an excavator.

This sounds like a pretty niche solution.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Press Level View Post
He has a blue checkmark next to his name, therefore his opinion is important.
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2022, 01:06 PM   #25
Azure
Had an idea!
 
Azure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
So he recommends at least an acre for a closed loop system, and the drawbacks of an open loop make it not usable in Calgary, anyway.

"Each tonne of cooling/heating power I have requires 600 ft of pipe." So that's 7 120 foot trenches for his place. So sure, if you have an acreage, this might be a solution. You also need to be bellow the frost line, and deeper to have much heating return.

He said it would cost 30-40K installed, he did it for $17k USD, but his own labour, and he had an excavator.

This sounds like a pretty niche solution.
Also really depends on the type of ground you have. I know guys who have run into repeated drilling issues trying to do loops.

It gets expensive.

Rough estimates to hire someone to do drilling for 7 120 foot trenches would be around $50k I would say. $5k per loop.

A lot more if you have a ground type where it is hard to drill properly.

Definitely niche.
Azure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2022, 08:27 PM   #26
Mathgod
Franchise Player
 
Mathgod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Exp:
Default

It's cost prohibitive for a lot of people. Absolutely.

But there's really no reason why each province can't have a rebate or tax credit program like they have in Manitoba. And there's really no reason why all large buildings shouldn't have a geoexchange system put in.
__________________
Mathgod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2022, 08:01 AM   #27
Azure
Had an idea!
 
Azure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Exp:
Default

We need a federal rebate program for heat pumps.

The future is air to air heat pumps. The Mitsubishi Zuba claims to have 100% heating capacity at -10 C & around 80% efficiency in -20 to -30 C.

http://www.mitsubishielectric.ca/en/...me-owners/zuba

We need more development in this field to get the heat pumps where they are 100% effective in -40 C, and then you have basically solved the heating problem. Run a sizable federal rebate for all heat pump installations for new builds or retrofits, and people will go this route. The carbon tax pushes people in this direction (big influence on our decision), but a rebate to help pay for some upfront costs would help a LOT.

For a water to air system, if you are lucky enough to live in an area where there is good well water supply to install it, and you need more than 10 tons, the government should help way more. The savings are massive for 25 years, which tends to be the lifespan of the unit.
Azure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2022, 11:20 AM   #28
opendoor
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

The COP of heat pumps at -30 isn't particularly great anyway, so you don't even necessarily need new technology, you just need to install inexpensive electric heat strips for when it's incapable of keeping up. In places with low emission electricity generation, that will still offer significant environmental benefits vs. gas.

Also, the good ones can modulate, so you can oversize them without any real penalty for efficiency. So if your heat loss at -25 is 35K BTUs and your heat pump can put out 80% of its capacity at -25, then you could just get a 48K BTU unit. It will be oversized 90% of the time, but it can reduce its output when it's warmer out and still run efficiently. And the capital costs of upsizing aren't much at all; I know when I was looking at them, going from 2 tons to 3 tons was only about $1K more.

I do think people underestimate heat pumps' ability to perform in cold temperatures. The Fujitsu heat pumps I have in my house aren't even designed for super cold weather, but they can put out 100% of their rated capacity at -21 at a COP of 2.15.
opendoor is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to opendoor For This Useful Post:
Old 06-25-2022, 02:25 PM   #29
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

My furnace is fine, but I wonder if it makes sense to supplement with a smaller heat pump that would double as an A/C in summer?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Press Level View Post
He has a blue checkmark next to his name, therefore his opinion is important.
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2022, 02:44 PM   #30
opendoor
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

Heat pumps don't make much sense in Alberta for heating, at least in terms of the environment given how electricity is generated. Turning gas into electricity and then into heat is less efficient than just turning gas into heat, even with a heat pump. On the other hand, sometimes a small heat pump doesn't cost any more than something with just A/C, so it might be useful for supplemental heat.

Really though, another thing that needs to be addressed is the insane cost of installing some heat pumps in Canada. I was extremely lucky that I have a good friend who's an HVAC/R Tech so I was able to get the equipment at his cost and then he and I did the installation in a half a day (excluding the ducting, which I did myself later on) for under $6K. But if I had hired a company to do it, it probably would have been about $15-20K (not including ducting).

In the US, you can at least order the equipment online (for about the same at-cost price I got in Canada) and then hire someone just for the install. But in Canada you're stuck paying a huge markup and then paying a fortune for the install.

There's a reason why they're used for heating and cooling in tons of lower income countries and that's because they're supposed to be relatively cheap to buy and install. You can buy decent mini splits (Carrier or LG) off the shelf from Costco or Walmart in Mexico for $6-800, but even the cheapo Senville units in Canada are about twice that.
opendoor is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to opendoor For This Useful Post:
Old 07-03-2022, 11:38 AM   #31
Mathgod
Franchise Player
 
Mathgod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Exp:
Default

Major breakthrough in perovskite solar technology.



Quote:
4:31
But now a team at Princeton University reckon they produced a device that's not only highly durable, but that hits the industry standard for conversion efficiency as well.
__________________
Mathgod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2022, 03:03 PM   #32
CroFlames
Franchise Player
 
CroFlames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

I think the answer is that rich nations immediately need to changeover to nuclear power. This is technology that exists now. What's the saying? The best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago, the 2nd best time is now. Build the reactors NOW.

Once we are on that source, we begin to explore the feasibility of green sources like solar and wind on a mass scale, as well as alternate sources like geothermal and fusion. We have to get away from oil and gas as fuel ASAP.

That is, of course, if we are serious about combating climate change. I have my doubts.
CroFlames is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CroFlames For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2022, 07:24 AM   #33
Azure
Had an idea!
 
Azure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Exp:
Default

The geothermal system we will be putting in for our new facility to do heating & cooling will have a COP of 3.75 - 4. The Manitoba Hydro numbers on space heating were based on a the COP of 2.5 for water source heat pumps. With what we are seeing on the units we ordered, I'd imagine we have a payback on the entire system in less than 4 years WITHOUT government subsidies. With government subsidies it will be 2 years, maybe 3.

That includes installation.
Azure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2022, 07:31 AM   #34
GreenLantern2814
Franchise Player
 
GreenLantern2814's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Exp:
Default

The Enterprise is powered by a matter/antimatter reactor.

Antimatter is the most valuable, most energy rich substance there is - its worth about $62.5 trillion a gram.

I say we look into it.
GreenLantern2814 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2022, 07:49 AM   #35
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
FortisBC Energy Inc. says it will partner with Suncor Energy Inc. and Hazer Group Ltd. to build a hydrogen pilot project in Port Moody, B.C.

The $11-million pilot project will also be supported with grant funding from the provincial government’s CleanBC Industry Fund.

The project will be located at Suncor’s Burrard Terminal site and will produce hydrogen from natural gas.

The carbon byproduct produced will be stored as solid synthetic graphite that can be sold for manufacturing or industrial use.29dk2902l
https://boereport.com/2022/07/04/for...pilot-project/
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Press Level View Post
He has a blue checkmark next to his name, therefore his opinion is important.
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Fuzz For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2022, 08:21 AM   #36
flames_fan_down_under
I believe in the Jays.
 
flames_fan_down_under's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kitsilano
Exp:
Default

Thanks for sharing that. I have seen reports of BC looking into using excess Hydro energy and sending that to electrolyzers converting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, and then storing that hydrogen for hydrogen fuel cells / pumping it into natural gas lines.
flames_fan_down_under is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2022, 10:55 AM   #37
Torture
Loves Teh Chat!
 
Torture's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Exp:
Default

Alberta Electric System Operator (AESO) published a report a couple weeks back on pathways to a net zero grid by 2035.

https://www.aeso.ca/assets/Uploads/n...ays-Report.pdf

Interview on a podcast for those that don't want to slog through the whole report
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000568918236

Last edited by Torture; 07-06-2022 at 10:59 AM.
Torture is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2022, 12:24 PM   #38
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under View Post
Thanks for sharing that. I have seen reports of BC looking into using excess Hydro energy and sending that to electrolyzers converting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, and then storing that hydrogen for hydrogen fuel cells / pumping it into natural gas lines.
More info and a good Youtube video explaining the process:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...510422?cmp=rss
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Press Level View Post
He has a blue checkmark next to his name, therefore his opinion is important.
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2022, 08:10 AM   #39
DoubleK
Franchise Player
 
DoubleK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Calgary, AB
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under View Post
Thanks for sharing that. I have seen reports of BC looking into using excess Hydro energy and sending that to electrolyzers converting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, and then storing that hydrogen for hydrogen fuel cells / pumping it into natural gas lines.
There is no reason we couldn't have done something similar under the REP, using excess wind.

Huge missed opportunity by the NDP IMO.
__________________
It's only game. Why you heff to be mad?
DoubleK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2022, 09:00 AM   #40
Azure
Had an idea!
 
Azure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Exp:
Default

lol, climate change.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1545345583262695424
Azure is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
carbon , co2 , energy , nuclear , power

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:08 PM.

Calgary Flames
2021-22




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021