Toronto is no good

[codynw]

Leafs fans are a special breed. Most people would give up after nearly 50 years of incompetence, but Leafs fans just won't go away. I would respect them for their dedication if they weren't so annoying.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Yet they were a playoff team before Bernier got injured.

And yes, Reimer can be a starter on a lot of teams. He has a .915 career save % on Toronto despite being outshot every night. How do people explain that?

It's unfortunate the Leafs have Bernier, who will be a top NHL goalie for years to come to try to get ice-time from.

So......


The problem was Bernier got hurt, so an otherwise good team became hot garbage and missed the playoffs. Buuuuuutttt, the goalie who replaced him is a really good goalie?

Logic, it's hard

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by codynw

Leafs fans are a special breed. Most people would give up after nearly 50 years of incompetence, but Leafs fans just won't go away. I would respect them for their dedication if they weren't so annoying.

I typically find that Leaf fans aren't as annoying when compared with the typical Vancouver and Oiler homers. They have a better understanding of their hockey team, even if many see the Leafs through rose coloured glasses.

There are always exceptions to the rule, however.

[Spinach]

You can't have an intelligent discussion with someone whose reasoning is rife with logical fallacies.

Originally Posted by BigTuna

You can't pull the "Toronto Media" excuse on this. Doesn't hold.

Strawman argument (the poster he was talking to never made the assertion under contention).

Originally Posted by BigTuna

So ESPN are Leaf homers? How is this plausible? Seems like a very, very weak attempt at explaining it.

Another one made of straw...

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Where? Where has his ranking changed? It has not. So why are you asking this question?

The straw is strong with this one.

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Same with John Tavares?

Moving the argumentative goalposts away from Kessell & the leafs to Tavares & the Isles? Huh?

This guy is either irrational, in which case arguing with him is a waste of time, or he is deliberately being irritating, in which case arguing with him is a waste of time. That's kind of fitting, though, since the leafs are a waste of time.

[Mike Teavee]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Yet they were a playoff team before Bernier got injured.

And yes, Reimer can be a starter on a lot of teams. He has a .915 career save % on Toronto despite being outshot every night. How do people explain that?

It's unfortunate the Leafs have Bernier, who will be a top NHL goalie for years to come to try to get ice-time from.

Bernier got hurt and Kessel was playing injured. So those together were a killer. But on a basic level, a huge problem is the Leafs are so heavily reliant on those two players. They need Bernier to play lights out and Kessel to score non stop because of the horrible D and poor depth with the forwards. It's a testament to the strength of Bernier and Kessel that they could drag the team along for so long. But the reality is it's not sustainable.

The Leafs are more mediocre than "no good". Prob same as Vancouver. If they don't choke again I think they'll be a wild card team and lose first round of the playoffs.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mike Teavee

...The Leafs are more mediocre than "no good". Prob same as Vancouver. If they don't choke again I think they'll be a wild card team and lose first round of the playoffs.

The Canucks are constructed on a crumbling foundation and there is nothing they can really do anymore but ride it out into the Sedins' retirement. They are far from the elite offensive players they once were and it really showed in the Canucks' offensive struggles last season. I agree that the Canucks are similar to the Maple Leafs, but I think on their best days both teams are at best mediocre.

[Mike Teavee]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The Canucks are constructed on a crumbling foundation and there is nothing they can really do anymore but ride it out into the Sedins' retirement. They are far from the elite offensive players they once were and it really showed in the Canucks' offensive struggles last season. I agree that the Canucks are similar to the Maple Leafs, but I think on their best days both teams are at best mediocre.

Sorry, I must have missed the part where I said the Sedins were elite offensively. In fact, I didn't mention them in my post at all.

At present the Leafs and Canucks are middle of the road teams who will probably finish in the middle of the standings, maybe as wild card teams, not good enough to go anywhere in the playoffs, maybe outside the playoffs, not bad enough for an elite draft pick.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mike Teavee

Sorry, I must have missed the part where I said the Sedins were elite offensively. In fact, I didn't mention them in my post at all...

True. But it is what the Canucks need to be remotely competitive. They go nowhere, and are not part of the playoff bubble conversation without the Sedins playing at a plus point/game level.

[BigTuna]

The Leafs are nothing like Vancouver. The Leafs core or at or not yet at peak years. Vancouver is old and has to rebuild.

The only "Core" player in their 30's in the Leafs is Lupul.

[Red John]

Leafs have an awful core. Phaneuf, Kessel as your cornerstones. Add in Lupul, JvR.

That's the perfect core to finish 9th place with. Or be one and done in the playoffs.

But every single one of those guys were traded for and not drafted, and that's what you end up with - flawed players that other teams deemed expendable.

Leafs will never win a Cup with this group.

[Headshot]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

The Leafs are nothing like Vancouver. The Leafs core or at or not yet at peak years. Vancouver is old and has to rebuild.

The only "Core" player in their 30's in the Leafs is Lupul.

Okay, but what about core prospects like recently ranked 363rd best prospect Nylander? THATS the leafs best prospect? The official list of everyone in the world says that their are 362 better prospects!

No good.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

The Leafs are nothing like Vancouver. The Leafs core or at or not yet at peak years. Vancouver is old and has to rebuild.

The only "Core" player in their 30's in the Leafs is Lupul.

Peak years are 24-27. Kessel is 27 in a couple of weeks, Phaneuf and Lupul are past that. They aren't going to improve. Toronto is still rebuilding.

However, it doesn't make me happy to know our President of Hockey Operations is responsible for that

[Headshot]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Peak years are 24-27. Kessel is 27 in a couple of weeks, Phaneuf and Lupul are past that. They aren't going to improve. Toronto is still rebuilding.

However, it doesn't make me happy to know our President of Hockey Operations is responsible for that

Eh, I can see your concern; but I think Burke learned his lesson. There is now a high importance of character and leadership, something Burke didn't really take into consideration in Toronto. (Torontos biggest flaw imo)

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Peak years are 24-27. Kessel is 27 in a couple of weeks, Phaneuf and Lupul are past that. They aren't going to improve. Toronto is still rebuilding.

However, it doesn't make me happy to know our President of Hockey Operations is responsible for that

What about JVR, Kadri, Reilly, Bernier?

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Headshot

Okay, but what about core prospects like recently ranked 363rd best prospect Nylander? THATS the leafs best prospect? The official list of everyone in the world says that their are 362 better prospects!

No good.

Say what?

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Peak years are 24-27. Kessel is 27 in a couple of weeks, Phaneuf and Lupul are past that. They aren't going to improve. Toronto is still rebuilding.

However, it doesn't make me happy to know our President of Hockey Operations is responsible for that

Iginla had his best point year during 07-08.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Headshot

Eh, I can see your concern; but I think Burke learned his lesson. There is now a high importance of character and leadership, something Burke didn't really take into consideration in Toronto. (Torontos biggest flaw imo)

Burke did a great job in Toronto.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Peak years are 24-27. Kessel is 27 in a couple of weeks, Phaneuf and Lupul are past that. They aren't going to improve. Toronto is still rebuilding.

One can't be too hard and fast in his employment of these sorts of averages, but I think the point you make here is that the time for the Maple Leafs to maximise the production of their core players is now, and that is NOT good news because of their shortage of high end players inside the next 2–3 year window.

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

However, it doesn't make me happy to know our President of Hockey Operations is responsible for that

True, but I would say that recent performance of the Flames at the draft should allay some of that concern. Burke's current position as "president of hockey operations" as opposed to "general manager" also removes him a step from direct construction of the Flames' talent pool. So far I have few complaints about his tenure in Calgary, and this is from someone who has never been fond of Brian Burke.

Originally Posted by BigTuna

What about JVR, Kadri, Reilly, Bernier?

Van Riemsdyk is 25, Kadri will be 24, and Bernier is 26.

As I mentioned above, these are all players that are now just entering their prime playing years, but in a situation in which Toronto should ideally be competing for the Stanley Cup. Unfortunately for them, the Leafs are not close, and they don't really look to be in the course of the next 3 or 4 years.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

What about JVR, Kadri, Reilly, Bernier?

A core is that big now? Kadri has yet to show anything outside of a shortened season and turns 24, so this is his time to shine. JVR same thing. Reilly is a bit young to be a core player, but whatever. Bernier is 27, but he's a goalie so I don't know where his peak is.

Do you expect much growth in any of these players (outside of Reilly)?

Originally Posted by DOOM

Iginla had his best point year during 07-08.

Outlier. There are a few players who buck the trend, but the statistics bear it out pretty clearly

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Burke did a great job in Toronto.

Haha. Not many people agree with you. Certainly not his former bosses.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

One can't be too hard and fast in his employment of these sorts of averages, but I think the point you make here is that the time for the Maple Leafs to maximise the production of their core players is now, and that is NOT good news because of their shortage of high end players inside the next 2–3 year window.


True, but I would say that recent performance of the Flames at the draft should allay some of that concern. Burke's current position as "president of hockey operations" as opposed to "general manager" also removes him a step from direct construction of the Flames' talent pool. So far I have few complaints about his tenure in Calgary, and this is from someone who has never been fond of Brian Burke.


Van Riemsdyk is 25, Kadri will be 24, and Bernier is 26.

As I mentioned above, these are all players that are now just entering their prime playing years, but in a situation in which Toronto should ideally be competing for the Stanley Cup. Unfortunately for them, the Leafs are not close, and they don't really look to be in the course of the next 3 or 4 years.

Actually, the data for the 24-27 "prime" is quite compelling. You won't find many outliers. I agree with you though, with that many of their players in their prime, there isn't going to be some great stride made unless they completely change the make up of their team

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Mid twenties are the peak years for point production for forwards, but I don't know if that is true for overall performance (which I'd argue is 26-30).

Also, peak point production for defencemen is later than for forwards (about 28 IIRC) and IMO peak performance for defenders is even later still (I'd argue 30-34).

Goalies are voodoo. I make no claims about goalies.

Edited to add: Toronto is no good.