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Old 10-29-2020, 02:08 PM   #3161
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Yeah, the difference in the Maritimes isn’t government policy. It’s the fact that due to geographic isolation, they barely had any cases before social distancing measures were put in place. Geography, and random luck, have played a big part in which regions have been hit hard by covid.
In the early days Manitoba barely had any cases.

This was partly due to the fact that the Winnipeg airport was closed off early, and probably because people were responsible. But it was also because of our geographic isolation. Travel in and out of province was limited.

Now we have the highest amount of cases per capita. Why?

Manitoba still isn't exactly a high traffic area, and outside of Winnipeg it is pretty secluded.

From what I hear most of the cases are not coming from outside of province travelers either.

It has to be more than geographic isolation.
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Old 10-29-2020, 02:18 PM   #3162
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Came across this article which does a nice job illustrating impact of mask and ventilation on COVID spread indoors.

https://english.elpais.com/society/2...h-the-air.html
If this is true, the gyms being forced to close down have a great point, as their ventilation is much better than 'a good air conditioning unit.'

Same thing with churches, schools, etc.

Basically the entire risk of indoor spread can be reduced with mask wearing and ventilation. Not necessarily social distancing, though it can help.

We are definitely not giving enough attention to the ventilation side of the argument.

If any indoor area doesn't have proper ventilation, even just opening windows and adding portable fans would help.

Government funding to add stationary fans / ventilation systems would make a massive difference.

There is a company in the US called Big Ass Fans that make a fan that has now shown it can kill 99.9% of SARS-COV2 airborne pathogens.

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Big Ass Fans’ full-service air disinfection solution kills 99.99% of SARS-CoV-2 (causes COVID-19) and other airborne pathogens† throughout your space.
https://www.bigassfans.com/ca/air-disinfection/

A complete game changer. Get these going in schools and indoor public areas and we'd cut our risk of infection dramatically.
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Old 10-29-2020, 02:24 PM   #3163
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Do churches actually have good ventilation? Every one I've had to be in has been incredibly hot and stuffy. but maybe that's just the effect they have on me...
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Old 10-29-2020, 02:29 PM   #3164
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Originally Posted by ah123 View Post
Came across this article which does a nice job illustrating impact of mask and ventilation on COVID spread indoors.

https://english.elpais.com/society/2...h-the-air.html
Was going to post this myself. The biggest takeaway for me is how much we should be thinking about ventilation and the length of exposure. If you MUST do a small social visit, opening the window (even if it's cold outside) and keeping the duration short can really make a big difference. I don't think it's been studied much, but I also have a small room-size HEPA filter that in theory should help scrub the air of infectious particles as well.

Contrast this with my partner's boss who is holding a 5 hour in-person meeting with 12 people downtown today for no real reason other than to combat people's feeling of isolation. This for an old school oil & gas company that, like all of them, loves to tout their safety record. Guarantee the masks will come off as soon as they get in the room because "we'll be maintaining distance for the duration of the meeting." I can only hope that a) the building's HVAC system is up to snuff, and b) nobody has an asymptomatic case... otherwise they'll all be sick by this time next week (and probably me too).

I'm really pissed off about it TBH. Bossman is being recklessly irresponsible with his staff's health and didn't give his employees any way to express their discomfort or gracefully opt out. But at least we'll still have the economy when his entire team gets sick with COVID.

Last edited by Flames0910; 10-29-2020 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 10-29-2020, 02:34 PM   #3165
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Do churches actually have good ventilation? Every one I've had to be in has been incredibly hot and stuffy. but maybe that's just the effect they have on me...
Hot and stuffy doesn't mean good/bad ventilation.

Most modern buildings will be exchanging the air, cooling & heating.

The problem is we still don't have proper standards on this stuff in terms of how to decrease the infection risk.

The gyms in Ontario claim they have commercial ventilation systems. The government is refusing to provide data or even allow data to be collected to help determine infection risk.

The article that was posted isn't the first study done on how important ventilation is to decrease risk. From some reason the government of Canada just has their head stuck up their ass when it comes to taking a serious look at it.

We could have diverted 1% of the $300 billion plus we spent to study it and provide recommendations. Then another 5% to help indoor spaces setup properly ventilation systems.
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Old 10-29-2020, 02:40 PM   #3166
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Most churches aren't modern buildings. Or schools, for that matter.
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Old 10-29-2020, 02:46 PM   #3167
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Most churches I know are nice. High ceilings with good ventilation. You won't keep a few hundred people there for a couple hours if the ventilation is terrible.

Schools also should have good ventilation in place. With a combination of open windows and ceiling fans, there is no reason the infection risk can't be dramatically reduced.
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Old 10-29-2020, 02:51 PM   #3168
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Most churches aren't modern buildings. Or schools, for that matter.
You’re thinking of the old inner city churches hardly anybody goes to. The newer ones in the burbs tend to be much bigger and better ventilated.
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Old 10-29-2020, 02:52 PM   #3169
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Most churches I know are nice. High ceilings with good ventilation. You won't keep a few hundred people there for a couple hours if the ventilation is terrible.

Schools also should have good ventilation in place. With a combination of open windows and ceiling fans, there is no reason the infection risk can't be dramatically reduced.
Maybe schools have improved a lot since my day, but I remember every classroom and portable I was ever in to have horrible circulation. And many schools are decades old.

While good circulation looks to be a great helper here, it's not an easy or cheap fix.
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Old 10-29-2020, 02:53 PM   #3170
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Yes, well I don't spend much time checking out churches, unless it's a wedding or funeral.
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Old 10-29-2020, 03:11 PM   #3171
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Most schools have terrible ventilation. Windows can be open in September and June, between those months is pretty sketchy.

Most actual church buildings have really high ceilings which helps the air situation even if the ventilation isn't great. Now, gatherings tend to be an hour max. Churches in strip malls are an entirely different situation.

Schools have 40 kids crammed in a tight classroom with a regular ceiling and poor ventilation. There is only so much a mask can do.
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Old 10-29-2020, 03:34 PM   #3172
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Universities and collages built pre-2000 are the worst for ventilation. A lot of government buildings are awful too. I’m thinking the University of Manitoba and Ontario post secondary institutions as well as the Harry Hays building here in Calgary. All old, crowded and stuffy.
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Old 10-29-2020, 03:40 PM   #3173
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Yes, some of the newer churches, but outside of those, churches, schools, most gov't buildings, etc are not exactly bastions of great ventilation. A few ceiling fans etc are not going to fix that.
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Old 10-29-2020, 03:52 PM   #3174
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Maybe schools have improved a lot since my day, but I remember every classroom and portable I was ever in to have horrible circulation. And many schools are decades old.

While good circulation looks to be a great helper here, it's not an easy or cheap fix.
You're kidding, right?

Did you even look at the article? A combination of a couple ceiling fans and open windows can dramatically reduce the infection risk.

We spent $300 billion in taxpayer money on a slew of other programs. You're telling me a program with $30 billion in funding to improve ventilation in high risk areas was impossible?

It must REALLY be hard for you to admit something. Jesus.

Last edited by Azure; 10-29-2020 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 10-29-2020, 03:57 PM   #3175
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You're kidding, right?

Did you even look at the article? A combination of a couple ceiling fans and open windows can dramatically reduce the infection risk.

It must REALLY be hard for you to admit something. Jesus.
I'm just being realistic. Schools have no budgets, and to install ceiling fans in all the classrooms, and expect them to open windows in the middle of winter isn't exactly a practical solution. It's not that I don't agree that it would help. Just that implementing it isn't always going to be easy or possible.
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Old 10-29-2020, 04:03 PM   #3176
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Improving ventilation in cold climates normally means upgrading heating systems/ductwork and/or installing heat recovery ventilation (which also includes a bunch of ductwork). You can't just open some windows and run fans when it's -10º out and expect to maintain a usable indoor temperature with equipment based on normal heat loads.
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Old 10-29-2020, 04:04 PM   #3177
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You're kidding, right?

Did you even look at the article? A combination of a couple ceiling fans and open windows can dramatically reduce the infection risk.

We spent $300 billion in taxpayer money on a slew of other programs. You're telling me a program with $30 billion in funding to improve ventilation in high risk areas was impossible?

It must REALLY be hard for you to admit something. Jesus.
In Spanish cases only 6% were from schools. Is that a good target to stop spread. If you look in Alberta at the number of school spread cases they don’t appear to be a driving factor. School cases appear to be a general function of community cases.

I think really targeting duration, and locations based on the above knowledge should be what we focus on. It becomes pretty clear that what has changed since summer is more people are meeting eachother indoors.

So the restrictions on gatherings in private dwellings seems like a very important place to start. I think the province should also start encouraging masking in houses during gathering and limiting durations of gathering based on the above study.
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Old 10-29-2020, 04:10 PM   #3178
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We are now between 4 and 6000 new cases a day here in illinois.
New record of 6110 today.
What a ####ing mess.

Holy ****.
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Old 10-29-2020, 04:18 PM   #3179
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I'm just being realistic. Schools have no budgets, and to install ceiling fans in all the classrooms, and expect them to open windows in the middle of winter isn't exactly a practical solution. It's not that I don't agree that it would help. Just that implementing it isn't always going to be easy or possible.
I'm aware of one teacher at a high school who wanted to open their windows during September (both for temperature and Covid reasons) and found that they kept getting bugs in their classroom. Naturally getting screens put on the windows by the board would be an impossible exercise in bureaucracy, so this person built their own screens and installed them.

We sent a combination fan/HEPA air filter unit with my wife to her classroom, which she turns on during breaks to at least try to improve things. I feel like one of those for every classroom (at ~$200 each) would be a lot better than nothing, and wouldn't be overly expensive or complicated to execute.
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Old 10-29-2020, 04:18 PM   #3180
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Improving ventilation in cold climates normally means upgrading heating systems/ductwork and/or installing heat recovery ventilation (which also includes a bunch of ductwork). You can't just open some windows and run fans when it's -10º out and expect to maintain a usable indoor temperature with equipment based on normal heat loads.
5 second Google search. Turns out because it is a common problem, someone has come up with a solution.

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The ventilation unit can be installed in a sound-dampening space inside the classroom or along the corridor. The ventilation ducts inside the classroom are relatively short and only the ducts or their enclosures and the terminal devices of ventilation will be visible. No ventilation unit spaces or related ducts and conduits need to be installed on the roof of the school. A decentralised ventilation system is fire safe, as the fire cannot spread from one classroom or floor to another along the duct network.
Decentralised ventilation can be installed one classroom or floor at a time, and therefore the renovations can be completed without closing the entire school. A decentralised ventilation system is also an excellent solution when the use of the premises change, and when ventilation is being implemented in extensions or in temporary school premises. Installation of an individual ventilation unit does not affect other ventilation units within the building or their use.

A premises-specific ventilation system is a reliable and cost-effective solution. When no ventilation unit spaces and extensive duct networks are needed, the need for building technical installations and their costs also remain low. If extract air can be blown out of the classroom through the wall, no space-demanding duct conduits are needed between the floors.

The low consumption equipment does not usually require changes to the existing wiring either. No water-circulating radiators are needed for heating the supply air in the highly efficient ventilation units, meaning that no connections are needed to the heating system. Sewage is needed for condensing water because the highly efficient heat recovery condenses plenty of water even from the dry extract air of the classroom.The decentralised ventilation system is easy to design, as the same blueprint can often be used in each classroom. Ventilation units are also available in various sizes for different sized premises. The setup and the adjustment of airflows is also easy and quick because the system is simple.
https://www.vallox.com/en/about_vent...t_schools.html

But I agree with GGG, schools are probably not priority.

I just find the negativity towards these 'solutions' insane. Every single time something gets posted where there is ample evidence of making a big difference, there are 15 reasons posted why it won't work. No wonder we can't figure out how to deal with this other than more restrictions and lockdowns.
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