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Old 01-23-2022, 07:12 PM   #41
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Who are you referring to? Reinprecht and McCammond were OK but they played zero PO games. Who else - Simon? Neimenen? Nilson? Decent players but not exactly skilled playmakers or scorers.

ETA: IMO those guys were all Sutter type players. BUT they were all younger. I think Sutter and Treliving got players that play that way but who at 36 can’t keep up as well.
Sorry what are you arguing here? Go back and look at the deadline moves and you can see the 3 forwards I referenced. You named them. 3 forwards that immediately elevated the forward group and had a huge impact on the teams success in the playoffs.

It’s unrealistic to expect three skilled playmakers or scorers coming in, but 200 foot players with some speed and jam would help every line beyond the first.
Nilson, Nieminen and Simon were the 4th, 6th and 7th leading forward scorers on that club and didn’t cost much to add.

But I’m not sure Treliving has traded for 3 top 9 forwards in his entire 8 year tenure so unrealistic to expect that all to change in next few weeks.
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Old 01-23-2022, 07:22 PM   #42
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The general thoughts behind what Sutter did in 2004 and what should happen now are good. To an extent. Consider if a combination of a wily vet coming in and a hungry rookie brought up, that didn't take anything away from the roster.

Calle Jarnkrok (UFA) for Glenn Gawdin (in Seattle he would actually get a serious look) and 2023 4th.

Bring up Phillips.

The bottom of the forward core becomes :

Dube - Backlund - Phillips
Lucic - Richardson - Jarnkrok
Lewis

Pitlick and Ritchie go to taxi squad.

You can roll four lines with that comfortably.
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Old 01-23-2022, 07:48 PM   #43
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My answer is "no" only because the time to call him up was months ago.
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Old 01-23-2022, 07:53 PM   #44
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I was waiting for Scorp to weigh in on this one.
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Old 01-23-2022, 08:04 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by GioforPM View Post
Who are you referring to? Reinprecht and McCammond were OK but they played zero PO games. Who else - Simon? Neimenen? Nilson? Decent players but not exactly skilled playmakers or scorers.

ETA: IMO those guys were all Sutter type players. BUT they were all younger. I think Sutter and Treliving got players that play that way but who at 36 can’t keep up as well.
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Sorry what are you arguing here? Go back and look at the deadline moves and you can see the 3 forwards I referenced. You named them. 3 forwards that immediately elevated the forward group and had a huge impact on the teams success in the playoffs.

It’s unrealistic to expect three skilled playmakers or scorers coming in, but 200 foot players with some speed and jam would help every line beyond the first.
Nilson, Nieminen and Simon were the 4th, 6th and 7th leading forward scorers on that club and didn’t cost much to add.

But I’m not sure Treliving has traded for 3 top 9 forwards in his entire 8 year tenure so unrealistic to expect that all to change in next few weeks.
I’m arguing that if Treliving went out and got a Neimenen, Nilson and Simon that there’s be howls from the “we need skill” crowd. I’m not sure what stats you are looking at but those guys were nowhere near where you said they were on the team. 4, 6 and 7 were Gelinas, Lombardi and Saprykin in points, Gelinas, Saprykin and Clark in goals.

Within a couple years only Nilson was on the team. And he never made a dent afterward.
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Old 01-23-2022, 08:08 PM   #46
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Gaudreau - Lindholm - Phillips
Tkachuk - Coleman - Mangiapane
Lucic - Backlund - Dube
Richardson - Monahan - Lewis/Ritchie

Gaudreau gets to play with a skilled forward, like Kane did with Debrincat. You don't have to be big to win puck battles.
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Old 01-23-2022, 08:12 PM   #47
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Gaudreau - Lindholm - Phillips
Tkachuk - Coleman - Mangiapane
Lucic - Backlund - Dube
Richardson - Monahan - Lewis/Ritchie

Gaudreau gets to play with a skilled forward, like Kane did with Debrincat. You don't have to be big to win puck battles.
You’re sewering Monahan just as his game is rebounding. And why are you playing Coleman at centre exactly?
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Old 01-23-2022, 08:13 PM   #48
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Let's not go nuts. As much as I'd love to see Phillips play with Johnny for a game or two, I actually think he'd be a much better stylistic fit next to Lucic and Monahan or Backlund and Coleman. Putting him on the first line right away would be asking a bit much, I think.

Phillips is a really skilled player but he's also a bit of a grinder, which is saying something given his size. He's one of Stockton's most tenacious players.

Also, big no to putting Monahan back on the fourth line. He doesn't belong there at all.
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Old 01-23-2022, 08:15 PM   #49
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I’m arguing that if Treliving went out and got a Neimenen, Nilson and Simon that there’s be howls from the “we need skill” crowd. I’m not sure what stats you are looking at but those guys were nowhere near where you said they were on the team. 4, 6 and 7 were Gelinas, Lombardi and Saprykin in points, Gelinas, Saprykin and Clark in goals.

Within a couple years only Nilson was on the team. And he never made a dent afterward.
Those guys were acquired at the deadline so of course they weren’t team leaders in scoring during the regular season. Try looking at the playoffs now.

You’re probably the first person I’ve seen try to diminish the impact of those deadline moves.
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Old 01-23-2022, 09:45 PM   #50
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Phillips is not an NHL player, but neither are a few guys on our roster. I would call him up and try and inject some life into the middle six, but the reality is that Sutter would want nothing to do with him. Phillips is too small and doesn't play the game at NHL speed. I think a call up would result in limited ice time, no production, and in Sutter's eyes, an easier line up to play against.
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Old 01-23-2022, 09:58 PM   #51
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Phillips is not an NHL player, but neither are a few guys on our roster. I would call him up and try and inject some life into the middle six, but the reality is that Sutter would want nothing to do with him. Phillips is too small and doesn't play the game at NHL speed. I think a call up would result in limited ice time, no production, and in Sutter's eyes, an easier line up to play against.
Is that backhanded positivity, or fronthanded negativity?
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Old 01-23-2022, 10:01 PM   #52
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Those guys were acquired at the deadline so of course they weren’t team leaders in scoring during the regular season. Try looking at the playoffs now.

You’re probably the first person I’ve seen try to diminish the impact of those deadline moves.
Talk about not recognizing the argument. I’m saying those were (a) great deadline acquisitions (that year anyway, they certainly weren’t later and Neimenen wasn’t even re-signed); (b) they’d be panned if Treliving made them because they weren’t skill players; and (c) they are the same kind of grinding players Treliving and Sutter acquired except the latest round that obviously Sutter requested is just too old.
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Old 01-23-2022, 10:07 PM   #53
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Is that backhanded positivity, or fronthanded negativity?
How about just an accurate assessment of the situation?
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Old 01-23-2022, 10:45 PM   #54
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And it makes me laugh that somebody seem so against even calling him up. Would rather be “right” and be able to say “See too small, never got a shot at the NHL level. Career AHLer”
There are two sides to that coin, and the other side is very blind to the fact that Phillips isn't Martin St Louis or Debrincat

He's hasn't even been a PPG player in the AHL yet, lets not put the horse before the cart. Let him earn his way, he doesn't need to be given a shot, this isn't a charity.

He is actually getting a shot, every night he pulls that jersey over his head.

He needs to do what he's done all his life, start producing, because right now he's not producing to show that he's too good for the league he is currently in

The only thing hurting him right now is the pressure/expectations that a very (small) group of wishful fans are putting on him. There is a fair share "smaller" and other players that have earned and progressed their game on the team currently. There is no reason he deserves to have the opportunities handed to him while other players had to grab hold and secure their own.
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Old 01-23-2022, 10:51 PM   #55
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He has 32 points in 31 games this year. That's more than point per game... top 10 in the AHL.

He has absolutely earned a look. You're really saying that he'd be getting a shot "handed" to him if he was recalled now, after all he's proven and with how underwhelming the guys in the NHL bottom-six have been?
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Old 01-23-2022, 10:56 PM   #56
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Someone with a better memory can fix the lines, though there were plenty of injuries so I'm not sure how many regular lines were even established. Without TDL moves the Flames were looking at something like:

McAmmond(Donovan)-Conroy-Iginla
Gelinas-Reinprecht(Lombardi)-Clark
Saprykin-Yelle-Kobasew
Oliwa-Betts*-Dave Lowry
Josh Green,

*Betts included in trade for Simon

Lombardi and Kobasew were both 21 yo, Saprykin 22; Lowry was 38.

Oliwa still played in 20 of the playoff games, averaging 3:44. Lowry played in 10. Lombardi got injured and missed the last two series, leaving only 2 true centres on the roster.

The alternative to those TDL deals was playing the likes of Lynn Loyns, Martin Sonnenberg, and Jason Morgan.
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Old 01-23-2022, 11:35 PM   #57
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The only thing hurting him right now is the pressure/expectations that a very (small) group of wishful fans are putting on him. There is a fair share "smaller" and other players that have earned and progressed their game on the team currently. There is no reason he deserves to have the opportunities handed to him while other players had to grab hold and secure their own.
Don’t get it twisted, I don’t think anybody here thinks Phillips is the saviour that is going to save the Flames season…not even Scorp.

There is probably a 90% chance that Phillips is a guy who is a good offensive producer in the AHL, but won’t ever be an NHLer.

But there is a time that comes when a prospect has learned all he can learn in the AHL, and you need to give him a run of NHL games to learn the game at the next level.

There is no doubt in my mind that the line between “NHLer” and “Career AHLer” is actually very thin, and sometimes if you don’t give a player a chance to learn at the next level you actually stunt their development at some point.

Over the last 4 seasons Phillips has played in 164 AHL games. Gawdin has played in 171. More time at that level isn’t going to teach them what they need to be NHLers.

Gawdin and Phillips are 1st and 3rd in AHL scoring for players U-25 over the last three seasons, they have been 1st line players on that team the entire time. They have earned more of a look.

I’m not sure the Flames aren’t wrong about how they’ve handled our prospects, and Tampa Bay is a good example to me.

Look at Ross Colton, he was never a guy that lit up the AHL, 76 points in 131 AHL games is production worse than both Gawdin and Phillips.

But somehow the Tampa Bay Lightning have found a way to play him 70 games the last two seasons, and this year he’s filled in admirably for them and has 19 points in 40 games, mostly being used in a 4th line role.

19 points is more than Brad Richardson, Tyler Pitlick, Trevor Lewis, and Brett Richie have combined for all season (13 points)

I’m not sure what organization the Flames want to emulate but somehow the best organization in the league seems to be able to work guys like Colton (0.58 AHL PPG), Joseph (0.75 AHL PPG), Raddysh (0.69 AHL PPG), Katchouk (0.54 AHL PPG) into their lineup year after year.

Going back further Yanni Gourde was a small guy that is about Phillips size, his career AHL numbers (0.66 PPG) weren’t any better than Phillips, but Tampa gave him a shot and he was great for them. Wonder if the San Jose organization regrets letting him leave.

Or going back again how about Tampa being the first organization to give Jonathan Marchessault a shot in the NHL after he had great AHL career numbers (0.86 PPG). Wonder if Columbus regrets that they let him leave their organization after only playing him in 2 whole NHL games.

Tampa Bay is the class of the NHL over the last 5 years, and they consistently give their own young AHLers a shot instead of signing below replacement level forwards.

So forgive me if I get frustrated that the Flames prefer to sign the Nordstrom, Ritchie, Richardson, and Lewis’s of the world, instead of imitating a franchise like Tampa Bay and giving a look to guys like Gawdin (0.75 AHL PPG), Phillips (0.76 AHL PPG), Ruzicka (0.67 AHL PPG), Mackey (0.59 PPG as a dman), or even Pospisil (0.55 AHL PPG). Pelletier too of course but he’s only played 30 AHL games, so I get keeping him down a little longer (although it would be a lot like the Kings calling up Toffoli in 2014)

Funniest part is even when Sutter won his cups it was with young teams. The roster for Darryls first cup win in LA had 2 regular players (>10 playoff games) over 30 (Mitchell and Scuderi), and 7 players under 25 (Doughty, Voynov, Martinez, Lewis, Nolan, King, Kopitar)

And even his second cup team added a bunch of fresh new youngsters (Toffoli, Pearson, Clifford) who were all under the age of 22.

Darryl’s best successes have been with young teams (04 Flames were a young team too), not by filling up the bottom of the roster with aging, low upside, provide nothing on the ice veterans. Good thing they are all so good in the room though.

Last edited by SuperMatt18; 01-23-2022 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 01-24-2022, 12:02 AM   #58
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Talk about not recognizing the argument. I’m saying those were (a) great deadline acquisitions (that year anyway, they certainly weren’t later and Neimenen wasn’t even re-signed); (b) they’d be panned if Treliving made them because they weren’t skill players; and (c) they are the same kind of grinding players Treliving and Sutter acquired except the latest round that obviously Sutter requested is just too old.
Well I'm glad you now recognize they were great deadline acquisitions. How they played two years later and how the club was constructed post lockout isn't very relevant IMO.

I stand by my opinion this club needs to improve the top 9 for this year's playoffs. The three I referenced were top 9 (on that team) which is why I pointed out their playoff performance. It's a hometown example of how you don't need to sell the farm for one player when your team is more than one player away from being a contender. Giving Sutter a few more NHL calibre options up front would be huge. They don't need to be elite scorers or playmakers, since this team wins by shutting the other team down.

As for the bolded, why differentiate who is acquiring said players? Is it an attempt to deflect accountability or something? Not every discussion needs to be a referendum on Treliving. That's an unnecessary sidetrack to talking about what the club should be doing over the next few weeks.
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Old 01-24-2022, 12:14 AM   #59
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Someone with a better memory can fix the lines, though there were plenty of injuries so I'm not sure how many regular lines were even established. Without TDL moves the Flames were looking at something like:

McAmmond(Donovan)-Conroy-Iginla
Gelinas-Reinprecht(Lombardi)-Clark
Saprykin-Yelle-Kobasew
Oliwa-Betts*-Dave Lowry
Josh Green,

*Betts included in trade for Simon

Lombardi and Kobasew were both 21 yo, Saprykin 22; Lowry was 38.

Oliwa still played in 20 of the playoff games, averaging 3:44. Lowry played in 10. Lombardi got injured and missed the last two series, leaving only 2 true centres on the roster.

The alternative to those TDL deals was playing the likes of Lynn Loyns, Martin Sonnenberg, and Jason Morgan.
It was pure GM brilliance and it cost them a 2nd round pick and spare parts really. Everything Sutter touched turned to gold in the first year+ of his tenure as GM and it was glorious being a Flames fan.

And then it went all to hell.
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Old 01-24-2022, 12:45 AM   #60
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Imo this is where the organisation suffers from not providing more games during there wavier ineligible period to help with adjustment. Good organisations develop internally. There is missed opportunity in not giving Gawdin more of a leash on the 4th line. The experience on that line should be to help progress the youngsters.

We don't really know what they'll do if promoted, bit we're all going to whinge when we pick up another middling player that does nothing too
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