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Old 11-22-2020, 05:51 PM   #1341
Oling_Roachinen
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Originally Posted by krynski View Post
You’re right, it should be mandatory that everyone carries a magic lamp to summon a genie to make another service vehicle appear in front of potential perps seconds after things start to escalate when they refuse to turn off their vehicles or step out of them.
"After things start to escalate" are the key words here. It was the officer who was escalating things.

If he simply walked up to the vehicle and it drove away, fair enough, nothing the officer could do.

If he was talking to the driver calmly while waiting for backup and it drive away, fair enough, nothing the officer could do.

But he escalated it by going into an emotional angry response and threatening the driver. He did this before the vehicle was blocked in. That's the problem. Patience. If it doesn't de-escalate to the point of the driver willingly leaving the car, at least he isn't a danger to public when they do force him out because he can no longer flee. It's the danger to public that, again, could be almost eliminated by a little bit of patience. Instead he says he'll break down the window, which of course does exactly what we expect it to do, causing the driver to flee.

Its funny how literally every de-escalating technique taught starts with patience but apparently that's just too much to ask for from our police.

There was no reason to press the issue, it's what all those links I posted say, its what all the cops training officers what to do will tell you, have some patience.
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Old 11-22-2020, 05:59 PM   #1342
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Well his is the exact opposite taught in de-escalation training around the world. So maybe you know better, but you should be able to provide some evidence to the contrary then.
The same procedures widely touted as incorrect these days?

Putting myself into the shoes of this guy, who completely hates police and basically is itching to make a point, how does a car blocking me in remove my anger? How does that de-escalate me? The only thing that does is prevent him from driving off (maybe, or he rams the car and gets shot).
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:03 PM   #1343
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The same procedures widely touted as incorrect these days?
Care to support this was any evidence?
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Putting myself into the shoes of this guy, who completely hates police and basically is itching to make a point, how does a car blocking me in remove my anger? How does that de-escalate me? The only thing that does is prevent him from driving off (maybe, or he rams the car and gets shot).
The only thing? You mean the absolute most important thing...Again public safety. An apparent dangerous criminal fleeing from police in a 4000 pound killing machine is that worst outcome. If what they are doing "only" stops that and any other harm, that's a success.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:10 PM   #1344
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It’s just funny that you are asking for de-escalation, and also for the vehicle to be stopped. In this circumstance, it’s very clear it’s one or the other. You can’t have both. The vehicle had the wrong plates (suggesting it is stolen or recently purchased), and the driver is not cooperative. It is either you de-escalate and the guy gets away, or the moment you try to call for backup, he takes off and endangers civilians.

Get that picture right. You can’t have both, and not everyone is incompetent except for you. I may suggest it could be the other way around.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:11 PM   #1345
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Care to support this was any evidence?
Evidence of what? Basically this thread, BLM movement and others on the matter, how people are calling for reforms of the police and their policies?


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The only thing? You mean the absolute most important thing...Again public safety. An apparent dangerous criminal fleeing from police in a 4000 pound killing machine is that worst outcome. If what they are doing "only" stops that and any other harm, that's a success.
Seems we are talking two different things. De-escalation to me means preventing the whole situation from escalating in the first place. Your answer of parking a car in front of the other is just changing one outcome to another, and still probably results in this guys window being broken and dragged out of the car at best. Isn't that the whole point of this discussion, to prevent that from happening?
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:13 PM   #1346
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I can not have a police officer pull over a car and wait for backup before losing his cool and smashing the window? Why not?

Read up on de-escalation techniques, verbal judo, all that jazz being taught to success in police departments all over the world. All of them preach patience, self-control and remaining calm. None of which was shown by the officer. This would be used an example of what not to do. There was no need to press the issue by smashing his window when they weren't ready to prevent him from fleeing.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:14 PM   #1347
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Evidence of what? Basically this thread, BLM movement and others on the matter, how people are calling for reforms of the police and their policies?
Yes...in the form of de-escalation training. I can't facepalm hard enough at this. All of these people asking for reforms are asking for police to be trained and use de-escalation techniques as many don't.


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Seems we are talking two different things. De-escalation to me means preventing the whole situation from escalating in the first place. Your answer of parking a car in front of the other is just changing one outcome to another, and still probably results in this guys window being broken and dragged out of the car at best. Isn't that the whole point of this discussion, to prevent that from happening?
No, I don't give a #### about his window being smashed. If anything I wish they would have first cut his tires. I care that in doing so he pressed the issue and forced the driver to drive off creating an unsafe danger to public for no reason but lack of patience. Obviously the best outcome is him peacefully coming out, probably something that happens in 2 minutes if he calls his lawyer, but the worst outcome is a risk to the public in the form of this guy driving off like that. Every single de-escalation technique that these BLM and everyone else you brought up preach patience, preach giving time, preach remaining calm, preach remaining respectful. They would all cringe at this video.

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Old 11-22-2020, 06:24 PM   #1348
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There are circumstances where de-escalation works, and circumstances it does not. If a person is running at you with a knife, do you try and talk some sense into them? Good luck. Have as much patience as you want, I’m pretty sure it’s not going to help.

In this circumstance, IMO, good luck de-escalating. They are operating a motor vehicle (weapon) that is likely stolen and are refusing to cooperate. They are not turning the vehicle off, and they are not cooperating, and doing things that indicate that they may be violent. You act, you die, or you let them get away. There are literally no other options. It’s not like you’re trying to stop someone from jumping off a bridge.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:32 PM   #1349
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I'm talking about this example. I'm not talking about hypotheticals. I saw the video, I'm criticizing the actions of the police in the video. Not any other scenario you want to come up.

The police accomplished nothing getting angry and smashing the window expect making the worst possible outcome a reality; a danger to public. This is the opposite of de-escalation.

Read up on police de-escalation techniques that actually have success, read up on good officers talking about how important it is to remain courtesy and keep your emotions in check, read up on verbal judo that can create cooperation. None of that was shown by the officer, this would be used as a prime example of what not to do. He didn't remain respectful, he didn't remain calm, he didn't have patience and the outcome could have resulted in a horrific tragedy.

https://www.apexofficer.com/deescala...ional%20crises.
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CORE CONCEPTS OF DE-ESCALATION
Self-Control
Effective Communication
Scene Assessment and Management
Force Options
Time
https://inpublicsafety.com/2017/06/t...me-to-explain/
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All good police officers and public servants, know—or should know—the value of being courteous, firm, fair, neat and careful. Adding “take time to explain” to their commitment is well worth doing.
https://verbaljudo.com/law-enforcement/
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Verbal Judo teaches the skills necessary to remain centered and focused during any verbal circumstance. You will learn to redirect behavior, diffuse difficult situations, and generate voluntary compliance from people not on their best behavior.
Just to start, but there's 1000 of articles, trainings, papers, etc. you can read to understand why police shouldn't be the ones escalating things.

And again, the video, not some hypothetical, but the video, has him calling his lawyer. We're two minutes away from hearing his lawyer yelling at him to get out of the car, not an officer death, had the officer just had some patience.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:36 PM   #1350
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Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
I'm talking about this example. I'm not talking about hypotheticals. I saw the video, I'm criticizing the actions of the police in the video. Not any other scenario you want to come up.

The police accomplished nothing getting angry and smashing the window expect making the worst possible outcome a reality; a danger to public. This is the opposite of de-escalation.

Read up on police de-escalation techniques that actually have success, read up on good officers talking about how important it is to remain courtesy and keep your emotions in check, read up on verbal judo that can create cooperation. None of that was shown by the officer, this would be used as a prime example of what not to do. He didn't remain respectful, he didn't remain calm, he didn't have patience and the outcome could have resulted in a horrific tragedy.

https://www.apexofficer.com/deescala...ional%20crises.


https://inpublicsafety.com/2017/06/t...me-to-explain/


https://verbaljudo.com/law-enforcement/


Just to start, but there's 1000 of articles, trainings, papers, etc. you can read to understand why police shouldn't be the ones escalating things.

And again, the video, not some hypothetical, but the video, has him calling his lawyer. We're two minutes away from hearing his lawyer yelling at him to get out of the car, not an officer death, had the officer just had some patience.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:39 PM   #1351
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And again, the video, not some hypothetical, but the video, has him calling his lawyer. We're two minutes away from hearing his lawyer yelling at him to get out of the car, not an officer death, had the officer just had some patience.
So you believe that the driver, who, according to police, has lied about every other thing he's said in the entire encounter (of which we don't know the length of) was telling the truth about calling his lawyer? And that if he actually was, he would have listened to that lawyer?
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:42 PM   #1352
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So you believe that the driver, who, according to police, has lied about every other thing he's said in the entire encounter (of which we don't know the length of) was telling the truth about calling his lawyer? And that if he actually was, he would have listened to that lawyer?
The lawyer is a red herring and irrelevant.

Edit - sorry, in a dynamic situation, the arrestee doesn't get a timeout to the consult his lawyer. Welcome to the real world Roach.

Double Edit - the ninja edits by The Roach are amazing.

Triple Edit - I am guilty as the next for feeding him, but lets not feed him anymore.

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Old 11-22-2020, 06:46 PM   #1353
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So you believe that the driver, who, according to police, has lied about every other thing he's said in the entire encounter (of which we don't know the length of) was telling the truth about calling his lawyer? And that if he actually was, he would have listened to that lawyer?
And if he wasn't...? In the meantime backup has arrived, blocked in the vehicle and removed the threat to public safety if he decides to drive off. Still ends up a win.

Do you disagree with de-escalation requirements that explicitly require police to give time, instead of pressing issues? Not just training that every single one will tell you to be patient and slow down the situation, but I mean actual requirements like those in Seattle?

https://www.seattle.gov/police-manua...-de-escalation
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When safe and feasible under the totality of the circumstances, officers shall attempt to slow down or stabilize the situation so that more time, options and resources are available for incident resolution.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:50 PM   #1354
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And if he wasn't...? In the meantime backup has arrived, blocked in the vehicle and removed the threat to public safety if he decides to drive off. Still ends up a win.

Do you disagree with de-escalation requirements that explicitly require police to give time, instead of pressing issues? Not just training that every single one will tell you to be patient and slow down the situation, but I mean actual requirements like those in Seattle?

https://www.seattle.gov/police-manua...-de-escalation


Literally his own post, 4 posts ago:

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I'm talking about this example. I'm not talking about hypotheticals
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:50 PM   #1355
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It’s just funny; there is absolutely no reasoning here with ‘Roach.

You continue to ignore the absolute basics, attempting to ascertain that you know law enforcement and that all cops don’t know what they are doing, and insist that this circumstance is the perfect candidate to discuss de-escalation techniques. You continue doing this while actively attempting to escalate further tensions (with little jabs here and there) and spew nonsense. I’m all for de-escalation techniques being used in as many scenarios as they can be, but this is utter nonsense.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:08 PM   #1356
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How many cruisers would it take to efficiently "bLoCk iN tHe cAr"? Id say a minimum of 3, but then again I don't have much experience in police training or procedure, much like Oling.

Anything more aggressive than politely asking the man to turn off his car would be met with outrage and mental gymnastics from Roach so there is really no point wasting your time trying to pull her back to reality.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:15 PM   #1357
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How many cruisers would it take to efficiently "bLoCk iN tHe cAr"? Id say a minimum of 3, but then again I don't have much experience in police training or procedure, much like Oling.
With two cruisers, you can keep a car from moving unless the driver is really motivated (and willing to bash the *(%&# out of his car and both cruisers) but can't stop anyone in the car from leaving. You need 4 to prevent vehicle movement and keep the occupants inside.

That also doesn't take vehicle size into effect. An F150 is going to bash through cruisers more easily than a Prius, say.
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Old 11-22-2020, 08:58 PM   #1358
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Even that assumes you can actually block him in without him driving off. "Hey, they're trying to surround me, I'm outta here" isn't exactly a hard thing to imagine.
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Old 11-22-2020, 09:59 PM   #1359
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Read up on police de-escalation techniques that actually have success, read up on good officers talking about how important it is to remain courtesy and keep your emotions in check, read up on verbal judo that can create cooperation. None of that was shown by the officer, this would be used as a prime example of what not to do. He didn't remain respectful, he didn't remain calm, he didn't have patience and the outcome could have resulted in a horrific tragedy.

https://www.apexofficer.com/deescala...ional%20crises..
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:52 PM   #1360
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So you believe that the driver, who, according to police, has lied about every other thing he's said in the entire encounter (of which we don't know the length of) was telling the truth about calling his lawyer? And that if he actually was, he would have listened to that lawyer?
I have watched this video many times over to try and form an opinion on it. That in itself should indicate some benefit of doubt is deserved for an officer in a potentially dangerous situation.

From what I can see, this video is not what should be shown to train new officers as an ideal approach to this type of scenario. Did the officer escalate the situation in a manner that was (in 20/20 hindsight from the comfort of our homes) unlikely to be successful? It is probably a fair comment that he did.

There was plenty of room to respond to the concerns of the driver about the loaded handgun and potentially being shot with an assurance it was only for officer safety and that he would put it away as soon as he could be sure the car was being turned off and the driver was not going to hurt anyone.

Would that have worked? No idea. But it was very likely something that would have been warranted before screaming to get out of the 'expletive' car (while still brandishing said handgun pointed in a manner that appears to me to be a position that if fired it would hit the driver).

I mean, it should be noted the driver would have to reach down with his hand to a very high-danger area in order to unbuckle his seat belt to comply with the officer's very agitated demands to get out of the car. Would that have ended well? Perhaps that was genuinely in the mind of the driver and not being appreciated by the officer in the moment.

That said, I am having a hard time being able to say that what the officer was doing was completely unreasonable given the circumstances. He did, in fact, answer the driver wanting to know why he was being arrested. He also responded that the driver could record all he wanted...he just needed him to get out of the car.

Related to the bolded above, in my opinion, the "I'm calling my lawyer" in this video appears to be a ruse and a distraction as part of a plan to flee.

If you carefully watch with 0:26 left in the video you get a clear look at the gear shift of the car. Looks solidly in park to me. By 0:11 we see the driver's hand go down to the gear shift and I will say we can know he puts it in gear at this point.

This happens before the window is broken.

In my mind we can know he put it in gear then because from the moment of the glass shattering to him driving away, we can see both hands of the driver...passing the phone from his left to his right and then continuing to hold it in his right as he drives away. A hand never goes down to the gearshift after the window breaking.

We also get a pretty clear view of the gear shift with 0:06 left in the video and it is now down appearing in gear (as different from what it looked like when I say it was in park 20 seconds earlier).

Calling his lawyer? Why put the car in drive to do that?

Is that why the officer suddenly broke the window? Was that the right move? Again, I am not sure. But there is a pretty decent evidence based reason to believe the flight was happening independent of that escalation of force.

In the end, I still am not sure on this one. There could be facts to support either side at this point and we just don't know them. The full body cam footage could be very interesting. But I would also say when a police service is not yet releasing that footage, you do not need to assume the police are accurately describing what it shows in their written media release.
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