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Old 12-13-2017, 03:13 PM   #4281
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He's certainly more than "one vote on council". Chairman of the board, president, whatever metaphor you want to use doesn't really matter. I'm not suggesting he has supreme command, only countering the people droning on and on like Nenshi is just some guy.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:21 PM   #4282
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Not to be pedantic, but the MGA defines Mayors and Reeves, etc as the CEO of the municipality. But it's "chief elected official" . There's no comparable business equivalent but the closes would be a hybrid of Chairman of the Board, chief spokesperson

The City manager is the CAO, but in corporate terms that would be a COO, not a CEO.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:23 PM   #4283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cappy View Post
I don't know if that is the right analogy. I think a closer analogy would be the Mayor and council are Board of Directors. The City Manager would likely be in a role similar to a CEO.
Actually Nenshi IS the CEO... it's just that CEO in his case stands for Chief Elected Official.

Edit: Bah GioforPM beat me to it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GioforPM View Post
Voting-wise he's the same (except he's the tie breaker IIRC). He has a much bigger pulpit than ordinary councilors, as you say, which ain't to be sneezed at. But he also has some ability to set policy and control agendas as the chair of meetings. He is also the City rep on a large number of important committees, as well as the boards of various city-affiliated organizations. He's the only official entitled (subject to delegation by him) to liaise with other government levels
His official duties (From the Municipal Government Act)...

General duties of chief elected official
154(1) A chief elected official, in addition to performing the
duties of a councillor, must
(a) preside when in attendance at a council meeting unless a
bylaw provides that another councillor or other person is
to preside, and
(b) perform any other duty imposed on a chief elected official
by this or any other enactment or bylaw.
(2) The chief elected official is a member of all council
committees and all bodies to which council has the right to appoint
members under this Act, unless the council provides otherwise.
(3) Despite subsection (2), the chief elected official may be a
member of a board, commission, subdivision authority or
development authority established under Part 17 only if the chief
elected official is appointed in the chief elected official’s personal
name.


... So really the principle advantage he has over any other member of council is the pulpit (which means nothing if he has no powers of persuasion) and maybe some deference given due to he being the only one with a city wide mandate.

Last edited by Parallex; 12-13-2017 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:26 PM   #4284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GioforPM View Post
Not to be pedantic, but the MGA defines Mayors and Reeves, etc as the CEO of the municipality. But it's "chief elected official" . There's no comparable business equivalent but the closes would be a hybrid of Chairman of the Board, chief spokesperson

The City manager is the CAO, but in corporate terms that would be a COO, not a CEO.
This is what I figured but didn't want to look it up. Nenshi is the CEO in the common sense that he sets the direction and agenda for the people in charge. Just because buddy boy has a "CEO" title doesn't mean he performs the traditional duties of setting direction, more like organizing employees and operations the way a COO would.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:31 PM   #4285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parallex View Post
Actually Nenshi IS the CEO... it's just that CEO in his case stands for Chief Elected Official.

Edit: Bah GioforPM beat me to it.




His official duties (From the Municipal Government Act)...

General duties of chief elected official
154(1) A chief elected official, in addition to performing the
duties of a councillor, must
(a) preside when in attendance at a council meeting unless a
bylaw provides that another councillor or other person is
to preside, and
(b) perform any other duty imposed on a chief elected official
by this or any other enactment or bylaw.
(2) The chief elected official is a member of all council
committees and all bodies to which council has the right to appoint
members under this Act, unless the council provides otherwise.
(3) Despite subsection (2), the chief elected official may be a
member of a board, commission, subdivision authority or
development authority established under Part 17 only if the chief
elected official is appointed in the chief elected official’s personal
name.


... So really the principle advantage he has over any other member of council is the pulpit (which means nothing if he has no powers of persuasion) and maybe some deference given due to he being the only one with a city wide mandate.
Plus I think he can set agendas to a great extent, and the control of committees is a big and underrated area of power. Presiding at meetings can be significant although I don't know if he takes advantage of that.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:40 PM   #4286
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Interesting fact in the Mayor/CM dynamic:

The Mayor hired the City Manager and can fire the City Manager at any time. Has happened before.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:47 PM   #4287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiracSpike View Post
I'm not suggesting he has supreme command, only countering the people droning on and on like Nenshi is just some guy.
Okey, but those people are only countering the people droning on and on like Nenshi is some supreme commander personally conducting arena negotiations while an impotent council looks on... the reality is that Nenshi is just a member of council, albeit the most influential.
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:55 PM   #4288
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Bit of an aside, but kind of curious of any fans calling in get into discussions about the arena with the Fan960 guys on Over Time?
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:09 AM   #4289
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Originally Posted by transplant99 View Post
Fair enough...was just going off the quote.

Even then though...did the NHL "inject" itself in the election? Or did Bettman go to bat for his boss?

It's just so weird to me that people get all up in arms about what the NHL/CSEC is doing in regards to a negotiation. It's obvious they are going to want the best deal possible for the ownership group....to do otherwise would be counter-productive to all ownership groups.
I'm good with that. And the City and it's Mayor should be held to the same standard. Yet so many posters have problems that the City is attempting to make a deal that makes sense for the taxpayers. The City has been transparent. CSEC has not.

The volume of personal animosity that is directed at Nenshi is incredible. KK and ME receive a fraction of what Nenshi receives.
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:58 AM   #4290
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How many of us, when doing our taxes this coming year, will refuse to take a deduction we're legally allowed to take? How many of us will willfully pay more money than we have to?

I completely understand what CSEC is doing. Why would they willfully pay more for the arena than they have to? Of course they're going to try to use any and all leverage they can to get the city to pay as much as possible.

At the same time, the city has a fiscal responsibility to taxpayers and citizens to get the best deal possible as well.

Both sides want an arena and both sides are willing to spend some money for an arena. Everything said is simply posturing and (embarrassingly public) negotiations tactics.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:48 AM   #4291
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Originally Posted by longsuffering View Post
I'm good with that. And the City and it's Mayor should be held to the same standard. Yet so many posters have problems that the City is attempting to make a deal that makes sense for the taxpayers. The City has been transparent. CSEC has not.

The volume of personal animosity that is directed at Nenshi is incredible. KK and ME receive a fraction of what Nenshi receives.
KK receives as much animosity as Nenshi. Let's not pretend this is a 1 way street. They are both equally (IMO) to blame for the state of this entire process.

People get annoyed at Nenshi because of his arrogance and demeanor. His whole attitude towards this process has seemed "My way, or we don't care if you leave"

For hockey fans, this can seem like a personal attack on something they love. They feel Nenshi doesn't care about hockey, and would rather make a name for himself then work out a deal (And this may be true)

I don't think any (rational) fan expects the city to roll over. However, any (rational) non hockey fan should realize that is Calgary doesn't make some consessions, another market WILL (eventually) build a stadium. A sports team is a limit supply asset, where demand is there.

However, with KK and Nenshi this will never move forward in a intelligent manor.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:57 AM   #4292
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Originally Posted by Jason14h View Post
KK receives as much animosity as Nenshi. Let's not pretend this is a 1 way street. They are both equally (IMO) to blame for the state of this entire process.

People get annoyed at Nenshi because of his arrogance and demeanor. His whole attitude towards this process has seemed "My way, or we don't care if you leave"

For hockey fans, this can seem like a personal attack on something they love. They feel Nenshi doesn't care about hockey, and would rather make a name for himself then work out a deal (And this may be true)

I don't think any (rational) fan expects the city to roll over. However, any (rational) non hockey fan should realize that is Calgary doesn't make some consessions, another market WILL (eventually) build a stadium. A sports team is a limit supply asset, where demand is there.

However, with KK and Nenshi this will never move forward in a intelligent manor.
Smart Home? I thought we’re talking an arena-


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Old 12-14-2017, 08:06 AM   #4293
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Originally Posted by Jason14h View Post
KK receives as much animosity as Nenshi. Let's not pretend this is a 1 way street. They are both equally (IMO) to blame for the state of this entire process.

People get annoyed at Nenshi because of his arrogance and demeanor. His whole attitude towards this process has seemed "My way, or we don't care if you leave"

For hockey fans, this can seem like a personal attack on something they love. They feel Nenshi doesn't care about hockey, and would rather make a name for himself then work out a deal (And this may be true)

I don't think any (rational) fan expects the city to roll over. However, any (rational) non hockey fan should realize that is Calgary doesn't make some consessions, another market WILL (eventually) build a stadium. A sports team is a limit supply asset, where demand is there.

However, with KK and Nenshi this will never move forward in a intelligent manor.
I agree that both sides are partially to blame for the current standoff, but I more or less completely agree with Nenshi's position. He told them he isn't willing to buy them an arena. CSEC had a fit and walked away.

As for the part I've bolded, you've got this backwards. It is cities large enough to support an NHL team that are in short supply. The NHL would gleefully have 100 teams across the world if it could find cities to put them in.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:10 AM   #4294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parallex View Post
Okey, but those people are only countering the people droning on and on like Nenshi is some supreme commander personally conducting arena negotiations while an impotent council looks on... the reality is that Nenshi is just a member of council, albeit the most influential.
People like their straw-mayor.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:12 AM   #4295
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I agree that both sides are partially to blame for the current standoff, but I more or less completely agree with Nenshi's position. He told them he isn't willing to buy them an arena. CSEC had a fit and walked away.

As for the part I've bolded, you've got this backwards. It is cities large enough to support an NHL team that are in short supply. The NHL would gleefully have 100 teams across the world if it could find cities to put them in.
I'm pretty much down thew middle on this thing, but (a) there was never an ask for the City to buy the Flames an arena; and (b) while they did shut down discussions, I wouldn't exactly call it a "fit". There's all kinds of projection from people on both sides of this debate.

What I do think is that the Vic Park proposal was not one that the Flames were that keen on, and that Nenshi and his allies on council are not interested overall in an arena period. There is therefore not a whole lot of motivation for negotiation, leading to where we are now. IMO the Flames announcement of a walk-away during the campaign was an ill-advised attempt to create city motivation for an arena, but it was not a good idea.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:19 AM   #4296
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I'm pretty much down thew middle on this thing, but (a) there was never an ask for the City to buy the Flames an arena; and (b) while they did shut down discussions, I wouldn't exactly call it a "fit". There's all kinds of projection from people on both sides of this debate.

What I do think is that the Vic Park proposal was not one that the Flames were that keen on, and that Nenshi and his allies on council are not interested overall in an arena period. There is therefore not a whole lot of motivation for negotiation, leading to where we are now. IMO the Flames announcement of a walk-away during the campaign was an ill-advised attempt to create city motivation for an arena, but it was not a good idea.
I suppose in the interest of fairness, I should also point out that the Flames expected:

- free transit on game days;
- free police at games for additional security;
- free property taxes;
- to not own the building (meaning they don't pay for any maintenance or
- receive all parking revenue); yet
- pay no rent.

I agree that Nenshi's response likely hurt some egos at CSEC (which was a mistake), but the City's proposal comes across as fair, with benefits to both sides (at least to me). The CSEC offer was ludicrous.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:34 AM   #4297
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Originally Posted by Canehdianman View Post
I suppose in the interest of fairness, I should also point out that the Flames expected:

- free transit on game days;
- free police at games for additional security;
- free property taxes;
- to not own the building (meaning they don't pay for any maintenance or
- receive all parking revenue); yet
- pay no rent.

I agree that Nenshi's response likely hurt some egos at CSEC (which was a mistake), but the City's proposal comes across as fair, with benefits to both sides (at least to me). The CSEC offer was ludicrous.
Not owning the building wouldn't mean they wouldn't pay maintenance. Most lessees are responsible for maintenance, including the Flames in their deal right now. Conceptually (though not in practice in many commercial leases) it would mean that there would be no property taxes to pay. Plus it means that they don't have a capital asset of any value.

I view the transit and police as throw-ins. They are pretty common in professional sports, especially the cops. Plus it benefits the city in other ways to have (a) less traffic and drunk drivers and (b) some control of security.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:47 AM   #4298
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Probably needs to be posted again since it's been (seemingly) so long

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Old 12-14-2017, 08:51 AM   #4299
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Not owning the building wouldn't mean they wouldn't pay maintenance. Most lessees are responsible for maintenance, including the Flames in their deal right now. Conceptually (though not in practice in many commercial leases) it would mean that there would be no property taxes to pay. Plus it means that they don't have a capital asset of any value.

I view the transit and police as throw-ins. They are pretty common in professional sports, especially the cops. Plus it benefits the city in other ways to have (a) less traffic and drunk drivers and (b) some control of security.
We don't really need to rehash these discussions over and over again... (but we are).

While I agree that most lessees pay maintenance (either included in their rent, or as some sort of op-costs calculation), CSEC explicitly said they didn't want to pay maintenance or rent. They felt that if they paid a portion of the initial arena, they should get to use it for free. That was very clear in their proposal.

Also, I don't think it benefits the city to have police officers at the Saddledome, instead of out working in the other 99.99999% of the city. I do agree that they might have been negotiating items thrown in just so they can agree to remove them and look like they were actually negotiating.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:04 AM   #4300
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Nenshi has one vote but his position as mayor and the resulting control over the top levels of city management make him very influential. The only time Nenshi does not have the ability to direct how things are going to be, is when a political hot-potato comes down the chute, such as secondary suites. And arenas.

That being said he pretty much has the ability to control the agenda and does-- as a mayor should. He has taken a very reasonable stance with CSEC, and that stance has resonated through the top management of the city.

The CSEC stance was patently unreasonable and a request for a billion dollar hand out.

On another note, why does CPS need to put that mobile command unit outside the dome every game? It strikes me as militaristic and a waste of money.
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