[News] Tij Iginla selected ninth overall by Seattle in WHL Draft

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

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[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

They may have had someone good but its a 99% chance they weren't the caliber of Jarome Iginla.

The way you frame your responses with such open ended blanket suggestions that make someone feel incorrect for having any kind of opinion on the likelihood of something because there's always bound to be an exception is rather obnoxious.

It's a sign of a lack of charisma when you refuse to give credit on any points made and make a constructive discussion, but instead shift the perspective in whatever way makes the participant seem like they're going out on a limb because they haven't researched each and every individual case.

Hard to believe you were in media when you're this rigid and invalidating from your critical perch. Maybe provide some insight (if you have some on this current crop of players to counter with) instead of just dismissing everything like a doink?

It's that kind of posting style that detracts from good discussions.

Yikes Trent, that's some ugly, personal stuff there.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Yeah I tore into him. But his posting style was getting annoying and in that moment I wasn't having it. Comes off like he believes he's the authority on this draft and every one else of a differing opinion is wrong or less knowledgeable. The entire draft in its nature is a crapshoot with some educated guesses. Otherwise we wouldn't have superstars that come out of the 4th-6th rounds.

Last week apparently I was wrong according to him just for looking at/considering the center pool or Tij at 9th overall because there was an elite D group full of #1 blueliners, and that's the obvious choice.

This week he's all aboard the Lindstrom train (a center), go figure.

He could've opted not to make a comment, or just say something constructive like others were. It was just fun and light conversation. But he had to chime in again just to assert that another poster is wrong for thinking having Iggy at home as a young player would be an advantage. That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to have given that it's a Flames board.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Who did the other prospects have around them to mentor and coach them? Your premise is that Tij had an advantage. How can you say that if you don't know who the others had?

I don't think he's knocking the other players, just pointing out that having a dad of Iggy's ilk would have some advantages. How many of those other players have dads who have had a career like Iggy's? There is going to be some very good players available, but it's not hard to see why some people still might like the Tij pick.

[mrdonkey]

At the end of the day, the product is entertainment and the goal is to make money. Unless there's a complete slam dunk available when the Flames pick (and in this draft I don't believe there is), picking Iggy Jr. would be a license to print money. I don't think the Flames pass that up if he's there. They might even trade down to do it, if they have good intel on who other teams covet.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I don't think he's knocking the other players, just pointing out that having a dad of Iggy's ilk would have some advantages. How many of those other players have dads who have had a career like Iggy's? There is going to be some very good players available, but it's not hard to see why some people still might like the Tij pick.

I get that
I was just debating the premise. Those players wouldn’t have a guy like Iggy but these prospects are given the very best coaching and skill development very early on. I just don’t see it as an advatange

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Yeah I tore into him. But his posting style was getting annoying and in that moment I wasn't having it. Comes off like he believes he's the authority on this draft and every one else of a differing opinion is wrong or less knowledgeable. The entire draft in its nature is a crapshoot with some educated guesses. Otherwise we wouldn't have superstars that come out of the 4th-6th rounds.

Last week apparently I was wrong according to him just for looking at/considering the center pool or Tij at 9th overall because there was an elite D group full of #1 blueliners, and that's the obvious choice.

This week he's all aboard the Lindstrom train (a center), go figure.

He could've opted not to make a comment, or just say something constructive like others were. It was just fun and light conversation. But he had to chime in again just to assert that another poster is wrong for thinking having Iggy at home as a young player would be an advantage. That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to have given that it's a Flames board.

I was debating your points. I didn’t insult you. I didn’t make it personal.
Not liking someone’s posting style is not a sufficient reason for teeing off on someone like you did.
Debate involves challenging views and the underlying logic behind those, and in turn being willing to be challenged

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Who did the other prospects have around them to mentor and coach them? Your premise is that Tij had an advantage. How can you say that if you don't know who the others had?

I’m curious who you’d place at a higher value, as a mentor/coach, than the Iginla jr/sr, relationship, within the other prospects?

Or what similar, or better tutelage looks like?

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

But it ignores the fact that #1 centres are the hardest piece to get in the NHL, followed by #1 dmen.
"just draft one in the later rounds" is not a strategy.

I would say that teams should never really on getting an elite center anywhere except the top of the draft.

Out of the top 10 current centers, some would argue that only Brayden Point was not a top 5 pick. Out of the top 20, only Hintz and Aho (2nd round) and Point (3rd round) were not first round picks. Relying on these kind of rare steals doesn't seem wise.

At least for #1 dmen, it's quite a bit more common to see them acquired outside of the top 5, or even in the 1st round, in a draft. 12 of the top 20 defensemen here were not top 5 picks.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Yeah I tore into him. But his posting style was getting annoying and in that moment I wasn't having it. Comes off like he believes he's the authority on this draft and every one else of a differing opinion is wrong or less knowledgeable. The entire draft in its nature is a crapshoot with some educated guesses. Otherwise we wouldn't have superstars that come out of the 4th-6th rounds.

Last week apparently I was wrong according to him just for looking at/considering the center pool or Tij at 9th overall because there was an elite D group full of #1 blueliners, and that's the obvious choice.

This week he's all aboard the Lindstrom train (a center), go figure.

He could've opted not to make a comment, or just say something constructive like others were. It was just fun and light conversation. But he had to chime in again just to assert that another poster is wrong for thinking having Iggy at home as a young player would be an advantage. That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to have given that it's a Flames board.

Meh, you fancy yourself a life coach/social interaction guru and that's good. But any time you're challenged or pushed in the slightest you revert to the exact negative/weak reactions and traits that you challenge others to avoid in conflict. Just kind of funny is all.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

I’m curious who you’d place at a higher value, as a mentor/coach, than the Iginla jr/sr, relationship, within the other prospects?

Or what similar, or better tutelage looks like?

Someone with more experience coaching players with a track record of mentoring future NHL players
As one example Sam Dickinson has been under the coaching of Dale Hunter who has a fantastic junior coaching pedigree with several nhl stars benefiting under his tutelage.
I’m sure Iggy is a great influence for his son. But I don’t see it being the advantage that others do. Hockey has turned into a sport for the wealthy and these kids, almost all, get amazing coaching and development early on.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I get that
I was just debating the premise. Those players wouldn’t have a guy like Iggy but these prospects are given the very best coaching and skill development very early on. I just don’t see it as an advatange

That's fair. Some of us thought Sutter was a great coach.. look how that turned out.

Personally, I think it could have some advantages, but i've been wrong before.

I'm just glad to see the Flames have finally got to this point, a bit forced but the bottom fell out.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I was debating your points. I didn’t insult you. I didn’t make it personal.
Not liking someone’s posting style is not a sufficient reason for teeing off on someone like you did.
Debate involves challenging views and the underlying logic behind those, and in turn being willing to be challenged

I figure you're just asking the questions to cover new ground. That's good media technique to me. I mean if I can't explain my points well enough for others to understand, that's a me problem, not a them thing.

Anyway...

If we're picking top 5...well then we can draft an all tool top D or C...so see ya Tiggy unless we're willing to trade down. Which I would consider since we have incentive and the roster to draft top 10 next year.

[GullFoss]

Fwiw, both Trent and Jani have decent points. As trent said, having a dad who knows the game at such a high level is a huge advantage relative to the general population of players in his age cohort. And some of those advantages might not be observable, but will give Tij a lasting advantage while growing his game.

But when you're comparing Tij within a select pool of the best 20 prospects in the world for his age cohort...that advantage isn't the same. As Jani points out, for those top 20 prospects, they've been getting high quality coaching and mentorship for years - at least since age 13 or age 14. And many of the players will have athletic lineage in their family. And many of the players will have parents who are fantastic coaches and teachers of the game.

Furthermore, one might actually argue that not having lineage (like having iggy for a dad) makes the achievement of being a top 20 prospects even more impressive. Scoring a run is a lot easier if you start on second base. Think of it this way: if you're have to bet on two equally accomplished young men accepted into Harvard. And one guy comes from the projects and the other guy was born to a super successful family. Who do you think is going to have the more accomplished career? It's not clear cut. Making yourself an A+ prospect while having no lineage or connections speaks volumes about someones character, work ethic, resourcefulness and innate ability.

Finally it's not even clear whether having Iginla as a dad is actually an advantage over someone who has a dad who might be an amazing amateur coach. For example, say a child has a dad who is a teacher and player in the WHL and coaches amateur hockey for 10 years before they had kids. Tough to say who has the larger leg up.

To me, the biggest reason to draft Tij is that there's a better chance the flames can keep him his whole career. There's probably no team or city he would rather play for. But the pressure would be insane.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Furthermore, one might actually argue that not having lineage (like having for a dad) makes the achievement of being a top 20 prospects even more impressive. Scoring a run is a lot easier if you start on second base.

I believe this is why all three Reinhart brothers were drafted higher than they should have been. Paul Reinhart gave his sons a big advantage coming up through junior, because he taught them how to train like pros and approach the game in a professional way. But in the NHL, everyone knows how to do these things and it is no longer an advantage.

So Griffin Reinhart was drafted 4th overall, played 37 NHL games, and scored two points.

Max Reinhart was drafted 64th overall, played 23 NHL games, and scored five points.

Sam Reinhart has done very well, but he would go lower than 2nd overall in a redraft.

Sometimes the advantages you start with help you reach your full potential early – leaving you nowhere to go as your peers improve and overtake you.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Not really - RBs don’t last very long, that’s why they’re perceived bad value (although I don’t know why - you’re getting a RBs best years at a capped rookie deal, more teams should draft them high and let someone else pay them their big contract)

Tij Iginla could easily play here 15 years+ and retire a Flame.

And while I agree with the need to add some elite young centres, let’s not pretend they don’t need to add elite young everything else.

So if the winger’s ceiling is Jarome Iginla (and it is) we take him. We’re not gonna stop sucking next year, or the year after that. Probably not even the year after that. We can add centres with other selections.

We took Tkachuk at six ahead of Clayton Keller, Tyson Jost, Michael McLeod and Logan Brown because he was better than all those guys despite playing a less premium position.

Unless we wanted to reach for Tage at six and wait until last year to be right about him, there were no centres remotely competitive with Matthew Tkachuk.

Are we really gonna take Konsta Helenius ahead of Tij Iginla because he plays centre?

I think not.

The funny part about all this center talk is unless Tij somehow makes the NHL as a fresh 18 year old next season he'll go back to Kelowna and likely will play as their #1 C.

And if he is good enough to make the NHL at barely 18 I doubt anyone cares if he can play center or not. It would mean he's a beauty.

[Groot]

I would be fine with the Flames drafting Tij if they are drafting around where he's ranked, but to play devils advocate for a second, how many elite NHL players then had a son go on to have an elite career? I think it's a very small list. So parental tutelage from an elite NHL'er doesn’t seem to be too much of a factor. And every scout/analyst also is well-aware of who Tij's Dad is, yet it hasn't vaulted him into a sure-fire top-10 pick.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I believe this is why all three Reinhart brothers were drafted higher than they should have been. Paul Reinhart gave his sons a big advantage coming up through junior, because he taught them how to train like pros and approach the game in a professional way. But in the NHL, everyone knows how to do these things and it is no longer an advantage.

So Griffin Reinhart was drafted 4th overall, played 37 NHL games, and scored two points.

Max Reinhart was drafted 64th overall, played 23 NHL games, and scored five points.

Sam Reinhart has done very well, but he would go lower than 2nd overall in a redraft.

Sometimes the advantages you start with help you reach your full potential early – leaving you nowhere to go as your peers improve and overtake you.

For the kid/s that have NHL talent and upside, it probably helps them to realize their potential. They would've gained intimate knowledge and insight into the life of a pro growing up with one and experiencing the lifestyle second hand.

There's no one we adopt more from than our parents. If your parent had a lengthy career in the pro league you're striving for, its an excellent model to have qualities imprinted onto you from.

We've all had great teachers, mentors or tutors within a school, sport or program, but their influence only goes so far. With family it goes that extra mile/depth. Sometimes for better or worse.

The Tkachuks by their own accounts had a very different upbringing being around the highest level of the game early on with a lot of moving around, and would've observed a lot of Keith and that lifestyle would've been normalized for them. It probably eased their transition into NHL roles since they had the talent from the outset.

Matthew will probably surpass his dad when all is said and done. In terms of "height" he's already there.

Certainly it's not to discount the impact of many role models and mentors a young player would encounter, including veteran coaches who've seen many NHLers go through their teams, but you can't beat having someone who's both as present and invested in you as a parent or parental figure imo.

There are both nature and nuture aspects to players that succeed/turn out. I think sometimes nature can't be denied, even if there aren't bloodlines in pro sports. In that case, coaches probably have a greater hand in it. But a strong case can be made for "nuture" as well.

[BigThief]

"It's a sign of a lack of charisma" is one of the least charismatic things I've ever seen written

[Sainters7]

With the Flames in the 8th OA spot now, I'm getting more and more excited about the suddenly very real possibility of drafting Tij...which feels like setting up for disappointment, as I just have this feeling Conroy ultimately won't do it.

I totally get the argument if Flames stay in a top 10 pick that going D or C would make more sense. But man that would hurt passing on Tij, especially if he turns into a star. I hope they take him.