Man, wish I had a ton of liquidity available right now to buy Boeing stock
Maybe look at Airbus.
I wonder how many airlines are going to cancel and look at the Bombardier plane they gave airbus. Boeing can make another commercial for us Canadians again...
__________________ Peter12 "I'm no Trump fan but he is smarter than most if not everyone in this thread. ”
Seriously dude. All you're doing is patrolling the internet and posting anything you can find to corroborate your opinion in all your posts in this thread.
At this point, the Lion Air investigation is ongoing and will take time to complete (most air accident investigations take at least 12 months). The ET investigation has just started. There is currently no evidence to conclusively state whether the aircraft or the crew were at fault for either crash. Some of the population are simply jumping to conclusions, led by emotion and blaming the aircraft.
What happens if either (or both) crews were found to have lost control of a perfectly controllable aircraft because proper SOP's/training/maintenance were not followed? The investigation needs to play out before any blame is laid. The MAX has currently been found guilty by public opinion, not by material facts and evidence.
I think most public opinion is nobody knows what caused these planes. And there is a significant chance that it could be a systemic problem with the plane. So why not ground them until they figure that out. I don't think that is jumping to conclusions, emotional or anything. 2 crashes out of 400 planes with less than 2 years of history is enough to make a rational person uncomfortable about getting on those planes when it is not that disruptive to pull them out of service to figure out the root cause.
And even if they were both pilot error, then it is definitely worthwhile figuring out why those pilots made those errors and what can be done to prevent the same mistakes happening again.
Seriously dude. All you're doing is patrolling the internet and posting anything you can find to corroborate your opinion in all your posts in this thread.
I mean to be fair...you posted that China grounding the Max8 was "China being China" and now a few days later its essentially grounded globally a few days later. So I think you're pushing your opinion as much as he's pushing is.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jar_e For This Useful Post:
Seriously dude. All you're doing is patrolling the internet and posting anything you can find to corroborate your opinion in all your posts in this thread.
Is this not your post from page 1?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLAME ENVY
Firstly, Godspeed to all those who perished in this crash.
Good grief. Jump to conclusions much? Just because it was clear and sunny does not rule out pilot error... The MAX is a great aircraft as is the entire 737 lineage. There is good reason the 737 is the most popular aircraft in commercial aviation history, it also has one of the best safety records.
Have you ever done any research on the safety history of Lion Air? If not, I recommend you do so. The entire continent of Africa has a dismal safety record with most indigenous carriers.
I would wait until the investigation sees fruition before blaming the aircraft involved.
For those worried about flying the 737 MAX, I suggest you fear not.
You are stating in one line not to blame the aircraft, yet in the same post basically dismissing the incident and preemptively blaming all faults on 3rd world training and safety records.
That could have been used as an excuse for Lion Air and it was by Boeing (countered by criticism from Southwest), but Ethiopian Airlines, despite your automatic stereotype of a whole continent, has a Category 1 safety rating from the US FAA. This did not happen to a shoddy airline, despite the stereotyped African 3rd world mantra you are trying to pass.
There is this distinct notion within North Americans that other countries rig their planes with bubble gum or something.
I have no idea what your angle is in all this, when the entire world has grounded the 737 MAX8, most recently Canada based off new satellite data. 2 brand new planes just crashed out of 370, and you are telling people to blame 3rd world pilots and safety records instead. Planes don't just commonly drop out of the skies, even at stereotyped 3rd world standards...certainly not brand new planes.
A plane crashing for a malfunction is an anomaly, 2 planes crashing for what looks to be the same reason is a pattern.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Firebot For This Useful Post:
This has got to cost airlines across the world billions of $
I wonder what sort of lawsuits will come of this? I've heard there's reluctance for airlines to sue because there are only 3 plane manufacturers for the Canadian airlines
This has got to cost airlines across the world billions of $
I wonder what sort of lawsuits will come of this? I've heard there's reluctance for airlines to sue because there are only 3 plane manufacturers for the Canadian airlines
It hasn't amounted to a billion dollars for anybody yet, it's only the first week. Lawsuits have already come of it... families are suing and Lion Air is preparing to sue as stated above. WestJet and Air Canada have strong working relationships with Boeing. The deal Air Canada signed with Boeing was HIGHLY favourable for the acquisition of these jets to begin with, involving Boeing's purchase of Air Canada's Embraer jets that nobody wants. No doubt they are already in discussion about further compensation.
There are more than 3 significant aircraft manufacturers in the world... and even if that were true it wouldn't stop anybody from suing for losses incurred. American Airlines lost an Airbus in a fiery crash just after 9/11 when the first officer's incompetence brought the jet down. They were tied up in nasty litigation for years and vowed to never buy Airbus jets again.
In 2011, they ordered 260 Airbus jets in a multi-billion dollar deal.
I told myself that I would stay out of the debates from now on, but the two graphs are certainly not "almost identical".
Once again, I'm not a pilot, but assuming that the ADS-B data is solid and that value of -30,000fpm is correct (if so, yikes!), it appears that JT610 was porpoising quite a bit, before finally going into a steep nose dive, and plunging into the sea.
The ET302 graph, while showing similar signs of porpoising, does not show the same super steep dive. Personally, I feel like it might have gone into a stall before simply falling out of the sky, but I am not an expert, and I don't have all the data in front of me, so I can't say that for sure. (It could have easily just hit the side of the mountain, looking purely at the lines on that graph)
Every accident has a unique fingerprint, comprising of both technical and human factors. You're right, just because it was a 3rd world country doesn't mean it was 100% pilot error. But you can't really dismiss the notion of pilot error (or anything else) either. I mean, the first officer on ET302 had only 200 flight hours, which is barely enough to get a commercial pilot's license in most countries, let alone a job in the right seat of an airliner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction
Am I reading the second graph right and it took roughly 6 seconds to plummet 7,000 feet? That is like 1/3rd the speed of sound.
Also, why do the times count down instead of up?
The times are counting up, as the graph goes from left to right. It didn't plummet 6,000 feet on the left side (beginning) of the graph, if you're looking at the Ethiopian Airlines graph.
The FlightRadar24 blog explains it much better than I could...the altitude is the pressure altitude above sea level, not simply the height above the ground. The airport elevation at Addis Ababa is 7625ft MSL. They have another graph with "on ground/zero" values removed for clarity (see spoiler box)
The altitude in that graph is not the altitude above ground level, and the "spike" in altitude includes values of "zero" because the plane wasn't in the air, but when it leaves the ground it "starts" at 7600ft. The plane still had a normal takeoff, the graph is kind of misleading in that regard.
I told myself that I would stay out of the debates from now on, but the two graphs are certainly not "almost identical".
Once again, I'm not a pilot, but assuming that the ADS-B data is solid and that value of -30,000fpm is correct (if so, yikes!), it appears that JT610 was porpoising quite a bit, before finally going into a steep nose dive, and plunging into the sea.
The ET302 graph, while showing similar signs of porpoising, does not show the same super steep dive. Personally, I feel like it might have gone into a stall before simply falling out of the sky, but I am not an expert, and I don't have all the data in front of me, so I can't say that for sure. (It could have easily just hit the side of the mountain, looking purely at the lines on that graph)
Every accident has a unique fingerprint, comprising of both technical and human factors. You're right, just because it was a 3rd world country doesn't mean it was 100% pilot error. But you can't really dismiss the notion of pilot error (or anything else) either. I mean, the first officer on ET302 had only 200 flight hours, which is barely enough to get a commercial pilot's license in most countries, let alone a job in the right seat of an airliner.
The Ethiopian graph doesn't have the data of the nosedive because data info was lost minutes before the crash
Officials say they lost contact with the plane at 8:44 a.m., six minutes after it took off
Two witnesses told Reuters they saw trailing smoke and heard a strange sound before the plane came down.
Malka Galato, the farmer on whose land the plane crashed, told Reuters he saw small items that looked like paper coming from the plane. The plane was making a strange noise and made a sudden turn just before it crashed, he said.
The plane tried to climb before it made a sharp turn and came down, Tamirat Abera, another farmer, added.
And yes, we can't rule out pilot error of course, but both crashes are similar enough that even the FAA chief admitted that new data forced their move to ground the 737 Max despite prior conviction. The public has yet to see that data, all we can do is speculate and acknowledge that the entire world has decided to ground the 737 Max based on most recent data.
Quote:
FAA chief says data aligns Ethiopia flight data to Lion Air accident
nce this accident occurred we were resolute that we would not take action until we had data,” Elwell said.
Ah, gotcha. Didn't know that part about complete data not being available.
What it really comes down to is, no one can really say definitively what happened, until the CVR and FDR are fully analyzed. It'll be interesting to see what comes out over the next couple of weeks, for sure, and how long this grounding lasts.
The Following User Says Thank You to Stealth22 For This Useful Post:
You are stating in one line not to blame the aircraft, yet in the same post basically dismissing the incident and preemptively blaming all faults on 3rd world training and safety records.
That could have been used as an excuse for Lion Air and it was by Boeing (countered by criticism from Southwest), but Ethiopian Airlines, despite your automatic stereotype of a whole continent, has a Category 1 safety rating from the US FAA. This did not happen to a shoddy airline, despite the stereotyped African 3rd world mantra you are trying to pass.
There is this distinct notion within North Americans that other countries rig their planes with bubble gum or something.
I have no idea what your angle is in all this, when the entire world has grounded the 737 MAX8, most recently Canada based off new satellite data. 2 brand new planes just crashed out of 370, and you are telling people to blame 3rd world pilots and safety records instead. Planes don't just commonly drop out of the skies, even at stereotyped 3rd world standards...certainly not brand new planes.
A plane crashing for a malfunction is an anomaly, 2 planes crashing for what looks to be the same reason is a pattern.
If you had read my previous posts, you would clearly know my angle. Let the investigations play out before laying sole blame on either aircraft/aircrew in either crash. Don't blame the aircraft when we clearly don't know the aircraft was at fault. My beef is there is an unfair bias being placed on the MAX without any credible evidence (at this moment) that the aircraft is at fault, that may change, but until that time why do it? With that, why are people not putting more emphasis/concern on the fact the F/O had 200 hours TT? You need a minimum 200 hours to get a CPL in Canada. How much time did he have on type then? No newly minted CPL has any business being in the right seat of any 737 IMO. You would never see that in North America. I was still flying single engine 172's at 200TT.
Whilst I'm a pilot, I don't fly the 737. I do have experience on a variety of types and can at least be objective from that perspective. I have several friends who fly the 737 for WJA, one in fact Captained a MAX from YVR-OGG this week without issue or concern. Surprise!
My view on aviation safety in Africa is first hand from a friend who has over 16 years experience flying in Africa with both Summit & Exxon. You're clearly an internet warrior, a search will provide you with a lot of information surrounding air accidents in Africa and their causes (hint - a lot of human error involved). I reckon the views of a friend who has flown in Africa and seen the safety culture (or lack thereof) first hand pretty valid.
Lion Air has a deplorable, self-induced safety record, should that not be taken into account?
Edit - here is one of the first links that comes up when you search 'Lion Air'. Would you fly them or any other Indonesian carrier with this in mind, serious question?
If you had read my previous posts, you would clearly know my angle. Let the investigations play out before laying sole blame on either aircraft/aircrew in either crash. Don't blame the aircraft when we clearly don't know the aircraft was at fault. My beef is there is an unfair bias being placed on the MAX without any credible evidence (at this moment) that the aircraft is at fault, that may change, but until that time why do it? With that, why are people not putting more emphasis/concern on the fact the F/O had 200 hours TT? You need a minimum 200 hours to get a CPL in Canada. How much time did he have on type then? No newly minted CPL has any business being in the right seat of any 737 IMO. You would never see that in North America. I was still flying single engine 172's at 200TT.
Whilst I'm a pilot, I don't fly the 737. I do have experience on a variety of types and can at least be objective from that perspective. I have several friends who fly the 737 for WJA, one in fact Captained a MAX from YVR-OGG this week without issue or concern. Surprise!
My view on aviation safety in Africa is first hand from a friend who has over 16 years experience flying in Africa with both Summit & Exxon. You're clearly an internet warrior, a search will provide you with a lot of information surrounding air accidents in Africa and their causes (hint - a lot of human error involved). I reckon the views of a friend who has flown in Africa and seen the safety culture (or lack thereof) first hand pretty valid.
Lion Air has a deplorable, self-induced safety record, should that not be taken into account?
Edit - here is one of the first links that comes up when you search 'Lion Air'. Would you fly them or any other Indonesian carrier with this in mind, serious question?
If you take a statistical approach of ignoring the plane and the crew and take the 10^9 hours per catastrophic event that planes are designed to under their safety processes you’d expect to see a crash on a fleet of 370 planes about 1 in 300 years. So to have two crash within 6 months of eachother is statistically unlikely so until you can prove the cause isn’t the aircraft grounding the planes is reasonable. This is true regardless of who is flying said planes and maintenance records and safety records.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to GGG For This Useful Post:
WestJet is using the west cargo ramp as MAX storage. They've been ferrying in and heading over there... so if you want to see a MAX party, swing by on Aero Drive. Air Canada has three stored over on the international side that can't really be seen from anywhere.
Sounds like ~7 airplanes over there now.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Acey For This Useful Post:
