Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Building materials are up like 200% right now. (Well lumber at least, think steel is only up 20%)

So not sure how they are supposed to build that big of a contingency though.

Agree though that the answer shouldn't be scaling back or removing items from the plan but that they need to be looking at alternative ways to secure the funding required to complete the initial vision.

Steel costs may not be up by the same percentage, but lead times may be super long. That can affect costs in other ways.

[Jbo]

I’m no expert but wouldn’t it make sense to hedge prices on a project that requires materials over multiple phases / years? Like is this all done on a spot basis? Surprises me there is no cost certainty

[Beatle17]

Anyone else surprised to hear leaks coming from City Council about "possible cost overruns" when they haven't been privy to any drawings etc?

I thought the original agreement had to be tightened up so nobody leaked to the press, but here we are with the usual suspects saying #### they aren't supposed to.

Are any of you surprised by this council that has worked for close to 10 years on the newest leg of the LRT, got commitments from all level of governments on a full line and haven't even got plans in place. They then cut the line from 20km to 10km and the price increased.

[Gundo]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Building materials are up like 200% right now. (Well lumber at least, think steel is only up 20%)

So not sure how they are supposed to build that big of a contingency though.

Agree though that the answer shouldn't be scaling back or removing items from the plan but that they need to be looking at alternative ways to secure the funding required to complete the initial vision.

Trade costs are absolutely HUGE as well and with the market being a busy as it is in Calgary right now EVERYONE is increasing trade costs. There is going to be 800-1000 on that site, if every trades looking for a simple $1-$2/hr more right now and have the chance to re-tender they are going to ask for it.

That alone 12hrs x 1000 guys @ $1 more than previous is $12,000/day
$12,000 x 365 = $4,380,000/year

That adds up fast on top of the mentioned material costs.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Anyone else surprised to hear leaks coming from City Council about "possible cost overruns" when they haven't been privy to any drawings etc?

I thought the original agreement had to be tightened up so nobody leaked to the press, but here we are with the usual suspects saying #### they aren't supposed to.

Are any of you surprised by this council that has worked for close to 10 years on the newest leg of the LRT, got commitments from all level of governments on a full line and haven't even got plans in place. They then cut the line from 20km to 10km and the price increased.

"We've been working on this forever, but the plans still don't make sense, but let's just build it because we've been working on it forever."

It's the worst rationale ever.


"No additional public funds" is fine, but "reduced public benefit" is still a no go for me. Of course, I don't like the initial deal, so obviously I don't like anything that makes it worse.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

"We've been working on this forever, but the plans still don't make sense, but let's just build it because we've been working on it forever."

It's the worst rationale ever.


"No additional public funds" is fine, but "reduced public benefit" is still a no go for me. Of course, I don't like the initial deal, so obviously I don't like anything that makes it worse.

not what I said at all. Every City project ends up in the never ending cycle of trying to avoid doing any work. Here are a few that involved the idiots at City Hall getting involved:
- 16th Ave North, prices and plans approved Alderman Druh gets involved and adds 19% of the total in "wants" for her area and drives many businesses out
- North LRT, no comment needed other than the province asking for an accounting because they "worked" on it for 10 years and still haven't finalized the plans, with the cost doubling or tripling for the full project. Good luck getting $3B more from the province and feds
-local city art, the Big Blue Ring, The Pile of Garbage on the west side, the stream of boulders at the City water plant that will be seen by nobody, the fish on the Glenmore Trail underpass at MacLeod (good idea getting people to look at this as they drive one of the worst roads in the province. The design is so bad that it is under water every time it rains hard) etc
- the CRL for the east village, basically all used up and they haven't even got to the housing that is supposed to pay it back.
- the arena district, what is the plan.
- property tax every year Nenshi has been in power, and business taxes so high that people would rather close their business than pay the ridiculous amount.

Need more? Tell us what his Highness and group of idiots have accomplished (don't mention the east village because it is a library, garage, music hall which is nice and couple of condo's by the Drop Inn Center)

[Voodooman]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

not what I said at all. Every City project ends up in the never ending cycle of trying to avoid doing any work. Here are a few that involved the idiots at City Hall getting involved:
- 16th Ave North, prices and plans approved Alderman Druh gets involved and adds 19% of the total in "wants" for her area and drives many businesses out
- North LRT, no comment needed other than the province asking for an accounting because they "worked" on it for 10 years and still haven't finalized the plans, with the cost doubling or tripling for the full project. Good luck getting $3B more from the province and feds
-local city art, the Big Blue Ring, The Pile of Garbage on the west side, the stream of boulders at the City water plant that will be seen by nobody, the fish on the Glenmore Trail underpass at MacLeod (good idea getting people to look at this as they drive one of the worst roads in the province. The design is so bad that it is under water every time it rains hard) etc
- the CRL for the east village, basically all used up and they haven't even got to the housing that is supposed to pay it back.
- the arena district, what is the plan.
- property tax every year Nenshi has been in power, and business taxes so high that people would rather close their business than pay the ridiculous amount.

Need more? Tell us what his Highness and group of idiots have accomplished (don't mention the east village because it is a library, garage, music hall which is nice and couple of condo's by the Drop Inn Center)

I look forward to the release of your platform for the mayoral run this fall, and how quickly you’ll fix everything, since you clearly have all the answers.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Voodooman

I look forward to the release of your platform for the mayoral run this fall, and how quickly you’ll fix everything, since you clearly have all the answers.

No that is powderjunkie.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

not what I said at all. Every City project ends up in the never ending cycle of trying to avoid doing any work. Here are a few that involved the idiots at City Hall getting involved:
- 16th Ave North, prices and plans approved Alderman Druh gets involved and adds 19% of the total in "wants" for her area and drives many businesses out
- North LRT, no comment needed other than the province asking for an accounting because they "worked" on it for 10 years and still haven't finalized the plans, with the cost doubling or tripling for the full project. Good luck getting $3B more from the province and feds
-local city art, the Big Blue Ring, The Pile of Garbage on the west side, the stream of boulders at the City water plant that will be seen by nobody, the fish on the Glenmore Trail underpass at MacLeod (good idea getting people to look at this as they drive one of the worst roads in the province. The design is so bad that it is under water every time it rains hard) etc
- the CRL for the east village, basically all used up and they haven't even got to the housing that is supposed to pay it back.
- the arena district, what is the plan.
- property tax every year Nenshi has been in power, and business taxes so high that people would rather close their business than pay the ridiculous amount.

Need more? Tell us what his Highness and group of idiots have accomplished (don't mention the east village because it is a library, garage, music hall which is nice and couple of condo's by the Drop Inn Center)

I have trouble taking seriously anyone who names a handful of "bad" things some of which predated the majority of this council, says you're not allowed to mention the highest-profile objectively good things that have been accomplished in the last decade, refers to council collectively as a "group of idiots," and needs to be spoon-fed any positives because they can't put half the effort in they spent on coming up with negatives.

Honestly, it's a free forum for you to share your views, but it seems like your issue is with the concept and reality of a municipal government. In which case, move to a pokey little town where nothing changes ever, no money is spent because there's no money to spend, and be happy.

How about you show us a better city council. Prove you're informed. Give us your reference point. It's not like this one is close to the best in the world, so it shouldn't be difficult. You do have a reference point for how you'd like the city to run, right?

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

not what I said at all. Every City project ends up in the never ending cycle of trying to avoid doing any work. Here are a few that involved the idiots at City Hall getting involved:
- 16th Ave North, prices and plans approved Alderman Druh gets involved and adds 19% of the total in "wants" for her area and drives many businesses out
- North LRT, no comment needed other than the province asking for an accounting because they "worked" on it for 10 years and still haven't finalized the plans, with the cost doubling or tripling for the full project. Good luck getting $3B more from the province and feds
-local city art, the Big Blue Ring, The Pile of Garbage on the west side, the stream of boulders at the City water plant that will be seen by nobody, the fish on the Glenmore Trail underpass at MacLeod (good idea getting people to look at this as they drive one of the worst roads in the province. The design is so bad that it is under water every time it rains hard) etc
- the CRL for the east village, basically all used up and they haven't even got to the housing that is supposed to pay it back.
- the arena district, what is the plan.
- property tax every year Nenshi has been in power, and business taxes so high that people would rather close their business than pay the ridiculous amount.

Need more? Tell us what his Highness and group of idiots have accomplished (don't mention the east village because it is a library, garage, music hall which is nice and couple of condo's by the Drop Inn Center)

paging: this post is terrible.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I have trouble taking seriously anyone who names a handful of "bad" things some of which predated the majority of this council, says you're not allowed to mention the highest-profile objectively good things that have been accomplished in the last decade, refers to council collectively as a "group of idiots," and needs to be spoon-fed any positives because they can't put half the effort in they spent on coming up with negatives.

Honestly, it's a free forum for you to share your views, but it seems like your issue is with the concept and reality of a municipal government. In which case, move to a pokey little town where nothing changes ever, no money is spent because there's no money to spend, and be happy.

How about you show us a better city council. Prove you're informed. Give us your reference point. It's not like this one is close to the best in the world, so it shouldn't be difficult. You do have a reference point for how you'd like the city to run, right?

Anyone that complains should have to deal with Rockyview County council just one time.


I did like "Drop Inn Centre" - it probably would be a cooler name.

ETA: since when does East Village have no housing?

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

- the fish on the Glenmore Trail underpass at MacLeod (good idea getting people to look at this as they drive one of the worst roads in the province. The design is so bad that it is under water every time it rains hard)

If you're going to be really angry at things, at least try to be angry at the right things. There are no fish on the walls at Macleod. It was built before the rest of the road was brought down into a trench. That's the only part that floods in big rain events, and it already did that before the rest of Glenmore was upgraded. You might need to get out more if you think the newer stretch of Glenmore with the fish is one of the worst roads in the province.

[calculoso]

The way Rick Bell (yes I know) makes it sound

- this is already a political/election football
- the project will be revealed at the end of the month

https://calgarysun.com/opinion/colum...8c65c484b/amp/

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I have trouble taking seriously anyone who names a handful of "bad" things some of which predated the majority of this council, says you're not allowed to mention the highest-profile objectively good things that have been accomplished in the last decade, refers to council collectively as a "group of idiots," and needs to be spoon-fed any positives because they can't put half the effort in they spent on coming up with negatives.

Honestly, it's a free forum for you to share your views, but it seems like your issue is with the concept and reality of a municipal government. In which case, move to a pokey little town where nothing changes ever, no money is spent because there's no money to spend, and be happy.

How about you show us a better city council. Prove you're informed. Give us your reference point. It's not like this one is close to the best in the world, so it shouldn't be difficult. You do have a reference point for how you'd like the city to run, right?

I have trouble taking seriously anyone on a sports discussion board acting like they have any knowledge of inside discussions, whether about arena's or player actions, etc.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

If you're going to be really angry at things, at least try to be angry at the right things. There are no fish on the walls at Macleod. It was built before the rest of the road was brought down into a trench. That's the only part that floods in big rain events, and it already did that before the rest of Glenmore was upgraded. You might need to get out more if you think the newer stretch of Glenmore with the fish is one of the worst roads in the province.

OK, but are the other points accurate, or more accurate than what the poster I quoted spits out daily on this board?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

not what I said at all. Every City project ends up in the never ending cycle of trying to avoid doing any work. Here are a few that involved the idiots at City Hall getting involved:
- 16th Ave North, prices and plans approved Alderman Druh gets involved and adds 19% of the total in "wants" for her area and drives many businesses out
- North LRT, no comment needed other than the province asking for an accounting because they "worked" on it for 10 years and still haven't finalized the plans, with the cost doubling or tripling for the full project. Good luck getting $3B more from the province and feds
-local city art, the Big Blue Ring, The Pile of Garbage on the west side, the stream of boulders at the City water plant that will be seen by nobody, the fish on the Glenmore Trail underpass at MacLeod (good idea getting people to look at this as they drive one of the worst roads in the province. The design is so bad that it is under water every time it rains hard) etc
- the CRL for the east village, basically all used up and they haven't even got to the housing that is supposed to pay it back.
- the arena district, what is the plan.
- property tax every year Nenshi has been in power, and business taxes so high that people would rather close their business than pay the ridiculous amount.

Need more? Tell us what his Highness and group of idiots have accomplished (don't mention the east village because it is a library, garage, music hall which is nice and couple of condo's by the Drop Inn Center)

FWIW I wasn't trying to put those words in your mouth, but following up on the point about 10 years of poor progress on the LRT. An arena has been in the works nearly as long.

I see a common refrain "just build the damn thing already", but my argument is that after 10 years of grinding we are looking at underwhelming, non-optimal plans for both.

I enjoy the rest of your yelling at clouds. It's funny that you lament Druh advocating for improvements to her ward, while Chu's indifference and idiocy certainly hasn't help any progress on green-line north.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

FWIW I wasn't trying to put those words in your mouth, but following up on the point about 10 years of poor progress on the LRT. An arena has been in the works nearly as long.

I see a common refrain "just build the damn thing already", but my argument is that after 10 years of grinding we are looking at underwhelming, non-optimal plans for both.

Curious on "underwhelming, non-optimal plans"

Have you seen the plans?

Clearly they are not released to the public

As for the green line, this is a totally different situation where they have to move existing infrastructure to fit the project

Totally different things....

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by flambers

Curious on "underwhelming, non-optimal plans"

Have you seen the plans?

Clearly they are not released to the public

As for the green line, this is a totally different situation where they have to move existing infrastructure to fit the project

Totally different things....

No, its simply based on them rumoured to be cutting things out already; and as I've previously mentioned the general concept/location being 'okay', but not really moving the needle or offering greater municipal benefits (see my post on building closer to the CP tracks)

Yes, the green line is totally different. They have taken forks in the road for various reasons and ended up with a watered down project that misses a lot of the value/benefits of the original concept.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

, while Chu's indifference and idiocy certainly hasn't help any progress on green-line north.

Chu literally ran for council the first time saying that the green line should go southeast first before going north.

That he got elected is probably a significant factor why the line is going southeast first, rather than north. Ward 4 had a councillor that wasn’t a champion for the project. Meanwhile Kesting was a huge champion for the line going south.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

not what I said at all. Every City project ends up in the never ending cycle of trying to avoid doing any work. Here are a few that involved the idiots at City Hall getting involved:
- 16th Ave North, prices and plans approved Alderman Druh gets involved and adds 19% of the total in "wants" for her area and drives many businesses out
- North LRT, no comment needed other than the province asking for an accounting because they "worked" on it for 10 years and still haven't finalized the plans, with the cost doubling or tripling for the full project. Good luck getting $3B more from the province and feds
-local city art, the Big Blue Ring, The Pile of Garbage on the west side, the stream of boulders at the City water plant that will be seen by nobody, the fish on the Glenmore Trail underpass at MacLeod (good idea getting people to look at this as they drive one of the worst roads in the province. The design is so bad that it is under water every time it rains hard) etc
- the CRL for the east village, basically all used up and they haven't even got to the housing that is supposed to pay it back.
- the arena district, what is the plan.
- property tax every year Nenshi has been in power, and business taxes so high that people would rather close their business than pay the ridiculous amount.

Need more? Tell us what his Highness and group of idiots have accomplished (don't mention the east village because it is a library, garage, music hall which is nice and couple of condo's by the Drop Inn Center)

This aged poorly quickly.