"Me Too"

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I get the sentiment behind this, and it's commendable that you recognize your past inappropriate behaviour, but one of my female friends (who posted a heartbreaking "Me too" story yesterday) wrote this on Facebook today:



The above was met with over 25 "likes" and positive replies (mostly from other women) as of this writing. So maybe we men should just quietly listen to the women telling their stories this time instead of trying to make the conversation about us. There will be many other opportunities to make a mea culpa post in the future.

Bravo.
It seems it has turned into a new kind of dude dick measuring contest - like who was the biggest one, but is now enlightened and so we should all celebrate him.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Itse

Some of my friends started posting these on FB today. I've seen something between 5-10 now. This was what I put on my wall.



I strongly encourage people to post their own versions. Others have owned up to being pretty terrible people, and those I feel are the most important admissions.

So, is it lowering your opinion of these people? Going to re-evaluate friendships with them or unfriend these 'terrible people', or is it just a celebration of social media confessions?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I get the sentiment behind this, and it's commendable that you recognize your past inappropriate behaviour, but one of my female friends (who posted a heartbreaking "Me too" story yesterday) wrote this on Facebook today:



The above was met with over 25 "likes" and positive replies (mostly from other women) as of this writing. So maybe we men should just quietly listen to the women telling their stories this time instead of trying to make the conversation about us. There will be many other opportunities to make a mea culpa post in the future.

I didn't have a sudden epiphany. I saw a couple of friends post about these, noticed they were appreciated and felt like I had something to say. You might notice my post is really less about me and more about how I generally feel. I posted it to my friends and it turned out to be one of my best liked posts ever. (70+ and counting, if anyone actually cares.) Most likes from women.

I really don't honestly care if someone I don't know thinks I'm "hijacking" or if some guy on a hockey forum thinks it's some kind of dick measuring contest. I find the latter pathetic honestly. My friends thought it was valuable, and their opinion matters a lot more.

I could speak further about my motivations and thoughts about the campaign, but that would be a long story. The whole campaign is a big bag of mixed feelings. There's honestly a lot about it that I find problematic, especially the way many are sharing their stories. (Pretty much all my psychologist and social worker friends dislike it.)

Anything people are going to say or not say is going to stir up reactions. Which is why I think it's better to just speak honestly about what you feel and what you've experienced instead of trying to measure who is the bestest person in the world.

My opinion is that it's good for guys to openly own up to what they're doing. From what I've seen it's started a lot of good conversations about how and why we end up doing the crap we do, stuff that doesn't really get talked about a lot.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Itse

I could speak further about my motivations and thoughts about the campaign, but that would be a long story. The whole campaign is a big bag of mixed feelings. There's honestly a lot about it that I find problematic, especially the way many are sharing their stories. (Pretty much all my psychologist and social worker friends dislike it.)

My opinion is that it's good for guys to openly own up to what they're doing. From what I've seen it's started a lot of good conversations about how and why we end up doing the crap we do, stuff that doesn't really get talked about a lot.

I don't know why it would be good for men to share but not women. Why would a psychologist disagree with someone writing about their "me too" experience? I see why women don't really want to read a bunch of male apologies. I don't think a confessional is worthy of inclusion. An honest take on what you might do to improve yourself and others is more to the point.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I don't know why it would be good for men to share but not women. Why would a psychologist disagree with someone writing about their "me too" experience? I see why women don't really want to read a bunch of male apologies. I don't think a confessional is worthy of inclusion. An honest take on what you might do to improve yourself and others is more to the point.

One problem with the campaign is that it's very focused on trauma without much positivity or discussions of how to make things better. Just focusing on trauma isn't generally good for recovery, and the flow of hard stories can easily create trauma of it's own for people who didn't have them.

So it's not about the sharing as such, it's the way people share. It's why I wrote in a way the way I wrote it, without dark details and with the idea that people can be better.

[PsYcNeT]

I think people are reading too much into the "campaign".

Really, it's to show how many people this sort of thing impacts and for those in the dark to have a "whoa" moment at the sheer volume of garbage.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Bravo.
It seems it has turned into a new kind of dude dick measuring contest - like who was the biggest one, but is now enlightened and so we should all celebrate him.

What do you want people to do then? Admission with intent to change behaviour seems like a positive outcome of this campaign.

Admission Is an important part metoo movenment in terms of changing behaviour. It breaks down the #notallmen attitude that exists. When men in general think of harassment and assault we think of some creep and not the average person. With many men admitting to harassment from all walks of life it will make victims of harassment more likely to believed and the issue more prominanet as a societal problem as opposed to a small cohort problem.

If it is a sincere desire for atonement it shouldn't be rejected.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by GGG

What do you want people to do then? Admission with intent to change behaviour seems like a positive outcome of this campaign.

Admission Is an important part metoo movenment in terms of changing behaviour. It breaks down the #notallmen attitude that exists. When men in general think of harassment and assault we think of some creep and not the average person. With many men admitting to harassment from all walks of life it will make victims of harassment more likely to believed and the issue more prominanet as a societal problem as opposed to a small cohort problem.

If it is a sincere desire for atonement it shouldn't be rejected.

There's a time and place for everything. In a week or two, I'm sure a men-driven movement to discuss one's past bad behaviour and one's plans to be a better person would be well received, but the sentiment I'm getting from many women on my friends' list today is, "God, why can't you men just listen to us for once instead of trying to make everything about YOU?"

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by GGG

What do you want people to do then? Admission with intent to change behaviour seems like a positive outcome of this campaign.

Admission Is an important part metoo movenment in terms of changing behaviour. It breaks down the #notallmen attitude that exists. When men in general think of harassment and assault we think of some creep and not the average person. With many men admitting to harassment from all walks of life it will make victims of harassment more likely to believed and the issue more prominanet as a societal problem as opposed to a small cohort problem.

If it is a sincere desire for atonement it shouldn't be rejected.

What do I want people to do?
Listen. Consider own behavior. Act. Support. Maybe nothing...
Anything tangible that makes it less about one's self.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I think people are reading too much into the "campaign".

Really, it's to show how many people this sort of thing impacts and for those in the dark to have a "whoa" moment at the sheer volume of garbage.

Yeah, it sort of started from nowhere and just snowballed without a very specific goal beyond "this is a serious problem". Just the fact that it happened I think clearly says there was a need for it, but because of that lack of a specific goal, it was inevitably that it was going to evolve into lots of other things. I think that should be taken as a good thing, instead of trying to just limit it to "let the women talk and that's it".

I don't mind a bit of a sh**storm over this. I might not have been a fan of the campaign, but I do like many of the discussions I've seen in my social media, and it seems the mainstream media is also starting to pick up these stories.

Originally Posted by GGG

What do you want people to do then? Admission with intent to change behaviour seems like a positive outcome of this campaign.

Admission Is an important part metoo movenment in terms of changing behaviour. It breaks down the #notallmen attitude that exists. When men in general think of harassment and assault we think of some creep and not the average person. With many men admitting to harassment from all walks of life it will make victims of harassment more likely to believed and the issue more prominanet as a societal problem as opposed to a small cohort problem.

I also think there's an important humanizing part in this.

A lot of women talk have talked about how difficult it is to tell their friends or coworkers "that's not okay, don't do that", and I think one reason is exactly because of this idea that the creepy harasser is some "other", not the otherwise pretty normal guy. Nobody wants to think their friends could be "the other".

Originally Posted by MarchHare

There's a time and place for everything. In a week or two, I'm sure a men-driven movement to discuss one's past bad behaviour and one's plans to be a better person would be well received, but the sentiment I'm getting from many women on my friends' list today is, "God, why can't you men just listen to us for once instead of trying to make everything about YOU?"

I get that, but that's just not how people work. There's going to be something else in a couple of weeks, and another campaign would not be likely to create such a tidal wave.

Also, tons of women have complained about "why is it again about us? Why are we not talking about the guys that are doing it?"

You can't please everyone. I err on the side of doing something.

[wittynickname]

The cavern between not speaking to any women at all ever for fear of offending her and telling a coworker she has a great ass is massive. Massive.

No one in this thread is suggesting some puritanical world whereby we only marry via arrangement. Women in this thread are merely suggesting that if you're interested in a woman, there's a drastic difference between conversing with her for a few moments, gauging interest, and then perhaps adding a compliment--your hair is lovely, you have pretty eyes, can I buy you a drink--and telling a girl she's got a nice rack as a pickup line.

Women can be and are sexual beings. Many women I know have higher libidos than the some of the men I know. But that doesn't mean those women want to be yelled at while on the street or groped on the bus. There is a canyon of difference between what women are saying here, and the black-and-white view that certain posters in this thread are espousing.

And if you can't understand why women don't come forward about sexual assault and harassment--look at what happens when assault or harassment does come out. For example, Brock Turner was literally caught in the act of assaulting an unconscious woman, by two witnesses. He got a slap on the wrist for it. Betsy DeVos has made it so that if a college student accuses someone of rape/assault--his or her sexual history can be called into question, his or her name can be dragged through the mud. Beyond just reliving the trauma, victims are put on trial themselves. In a case such as women being harassed and assaulted by someone like Weinstein, they were facing a person with immense power over their careers and futures.

It's not so simple as reporting that someone stole your wallet.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

There's a time and place for everything. In a week or two, I'm sure a men-driven movement to discuss one's past bad behaviour and one's plans to be a better person would be well received, but the sentiment I'm getting from many women on my friends' list today is, "God, why can't you men just listen to us for once instead of trying to make everything about YOU?"

This is exactly why I thought CP would be a good place for this kind of discussion. The women we have on this board are wonderful, but we all know CP is predominantly male - not to mention predominantly anonymous - and because of the thread-structure, discussions tend to be more-or-less focused.

I was hoping this thread would be about men analyzing their own behaviour, thinking through the ramifications for others, and then discussing changes we can make in the future and it more-or-less has been. Of course the usual suspects show up with their relentlessly mundane comments about virtue signalling, political correctness and whatever, but I think it's been a really good discussion.

To build on what wittynickname said about the cavern between never talking to women, and telling your coworker she's got a great ass, here's a post about "The Rock Test" we can run in our own lives.

https://medium.com/@annevictoriaclar...t-73c45e0b49af

[PepsiFree]

Nothing is more classically “man” than taking a campaign that’s just meant to raise awareness and have men actually just listen and saying “How can we dissect this and test it’s validity? Is it good? Bad? What’s next? It seems problematic. Say, did you know women have sex too? Is it ok if I tell a story now?”

lol.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nothing is more classically “man” than taking a campaign that’s just meant to raise awareness and have men actually just listen and saying “How can we dissect this and test it’s validity? Is it good? Bad? What’s next? It seems problematic. Say, did you know women have sex too? Is it ok if I tell a story now?”

lol.

"Mansplainers assemble!"

[GGG]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

There's a time and place for everything. In a week or two, I'm sure a men-driven movement to discuss one's past bad behaviour and one's plans to be a better person would be well received, but the sentiment I'm getting from many women on my friends' list today is, "God, why can't you men just listen to us for once instead of trying to make everything about YOU?"

There won't be a male driven movement to talk about ones past behaviour as there is not catalyst that doesn't start with women coming out and identifying the problem. Effectively it's the you can't talk about gun control after about a mass shooting arguement. When the topic is relavent is the time when you can enact real change. This response is Men listening, it's saying I acknowledge that my behavioir was part of the problem and will attempt to make change.

If men were making it about themselves they would be sharing about when they were harassed by women and saying #allharassmentmatters

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by GGG

If men were making it about themselves they would be sharing about when they were harassed by women and saying #allharassmentmatters

That's happening too, and was even discussed earlier in this thread.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

That's happening too, and was even discussed earlier in this thread.

Yeah I phrased that wrong and have seen it happening as well. I was trying to differentiate between that behaviour and the behaviours that lead to potentially positive outcomes of people acknowledging their culpability and changing their future behaviour

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

Betsy DeVos has made it so that if a college student accuses someone of rape/assault--his or her sexual history can be called into question, his or her name can be dragged through the mud. Beyond just reliving the trauma, victims are put on trial themselves.

I agree with almost everything you post, but I have to disagree with you here. I hate that victims of sexual assault have to relive the trauma...I've had to do it myself, but sometimes it has to happen to ensure due process and real justice, as it would be with any other type of crime.

This is a great article from a woman I hugely respect, Christina Hoff Summers. In it she details a different take on Title IX and the "Dear Colleague" letter sent out by Russlyn Ali in 2011 that laid out guidelines/mandates on how to deal with sexual misconduct on campus:

http://www.chronicle.com/article/Pro...cess-in/241137

The letter advised them (Campuses) to determine guilt in sexual-assault cases by the lowest standard possible — a preponderance of evidence — and to "minimize the burden on the complainant." It said nothing about the rights of the accused.

As I said, I believe due process is so important in these cases, regardless of whether it's painful for the victim to relive the experience. I don't think the victim should have their past and reputation exploited. However, it turns into a grey area when it literally comes down to he said/she said. Combine that with campuses that are wary of losing their federal funding, and situations like this occur:

Fearing Title IX investigations and loss of federal funding, many colleges set up extrajudicial sex courts, where defendants could be found guilty of a crime even if there was a 49.9 percent chance that they were innocent. At last count, more than 150 lawsuits have been filed since 2011 by students (mostly young men) alleging unfair treatment in a campus sexual-assault proceeding.

To me, those numbers are unacceptable, and honestly it does real victims no favors either. While I disagree with Betsy DeVos in just about every other aspect, I think this is one issue that she got right. This has to be revisited because as much as people hate to admit it, the accused have rights too. While they should never trump the rights of an alleged victim, they should still be entitled to due process.

If anyone wants to read the actual 2011 "Dear Colleagues" letter in full, here it is:

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/li...gue-201104.pdf

[afc wimbledon]

I've been dealing with sexual assault issues as a youth worker since I was in my twenties, took my first rape disclosure from a 14 year old girl when I was 24, I know all the stats and information but none of that prepared me for this

To read posts from every single female friend and even family members from 20's to 60's all post #metoo, every one, it brought me to tears frankly.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Nyah

I agree with almost everything you post, but I have to disagree with you here. I hate that victims of sexual assault have to relive the trauma...I've had to do it myself, but sometimes it has to happen to ensure due process and real justice, as it would be with any other type of crime.

This is a great article from a woman I hugely respect, Christina Hoff Summers. In it she details a different take on Title IX and the "Dear Colleague" letter sent out by Russlyn Ali in 2011 that laid out guidelines/mandates on how to deal with sexual misconduct on campus:

http://www.chronicle.com/article/Pro...cess-in/241137



As I said, I believe due process is so important in these cases, regardless of whether it's painful for the victim to relive the experience. I don't think the victim should have their past and reputation exploited. However, it turns into a grey area when it literally comes down to he said/she said. Combine that with campuses that are wary of losing their federal funding, and situations like this occur:



To me, those numbers are unacceptable, and honestly it does real victims no favors either. While I disagree with Betsy DeVos in just about every other aspect, I think this is one issue that she got right. This has to be revisited because as much as people hate to admit it, the accused have rights too. While they should never trump the rights of an alleged victim, they should still be entitled to due process.

If anyone wants to read the actual 2011 "Dear Colleagues" letter in full, here it is:

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/li...gue-201104.pdf

You can absolutely still properly investigate an accusation without bringing the victim's sexual history into it. It doesn't matter who a victim slept with previously, whether he or she has had 2 partners or 200 partners. It doesn't matter to the investigation at hand. That was the part I was referencing.