Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[GreenLantern2814]

This city never wants to do anything. It's so gunshy over the prospect of another Olymipcs even though basically every defining thing about this city came about as a result of the last one. Vancouver hosted eight years ago, they didn't shrivel up and blow away. It's the Winter Olympics in Canada. It's gonna be a hit.

We won't suffer a $30 tax increase so the city can properly plow the streets, and we lament the most unique piece of architecture in the city, that is now world famous, because it cost a few million more than a generic pedestrian bridge.

Don't sign some terrible deal where we're on the hook for a holographic scoreboard or whatever, but let's be reasonable. If people cared as much about the homeless as they said they do when the topic of arenas comes up, nobody in Calgary would be homeless.

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

This city never wants to do anything. It's so gunshy over the prospect of another Olymipcs even though basically every defining thing about this city came about as a result of the last one. Vancouver hosted eight years ago, they didn't shrivel up and blow away. It's the Winter Olympics in Canada. It's gonna be a hit.

We won't suffer a $30 tax increase so the city can properly plow the streets, and we lament the most unique piece of architecture in the city, that is now world famous, because it cost a few million more than a generic pedestrian bridge.

Don't sign some terrible deal where we're on the hook for a holographic scoreboard or whatever, but let's be reasonable. If people cared as much about the homeless as they said they do when the topic of arenas comes up, nobody in Calgary would be homeless.

You mean the Bengals stadium lease state of art clause where if 14 NFL stadiums have something they don’t Ohio taxpayers are on the hook for retrofitting into the stadium? Yeah definitely don’t agree to that deal.

[transplant99]

If I am Flames ownership, I politely listen to whatever it is the city has to say but commit to absolutely nothing until the Olympic thing is decided one way or another.

If Calgary is awarded the games then i say thanks but no thanks, let the city figure out how to pay for a new arena all on their own and then negotiate with them once they need an anchor tenant.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by transplant99

If I am Flames ownership, I politely listen to whatever it is the city has to say but commit to absolutely nothing until the Olympic thing is decided one way or another.

If Calgary is awarded the games then i say thanks but no thanks, let the city figure out how to pay for a new arena all on their own and then negotiate with them once they need an anchor tenant.

While there is some sense in that, the CSEC really needs to get going on this. They have sat on their hands and twiddled their thumbs for far too long as it is to constantly be waiting on some new development all the time.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by transplant99

If Calgary is awarded the games then i say thanks but no thanks, let the city figure out how to pay for a new arena all on their own and then negotiate with them once they need an anchor tenant.

Really?... So in your fantasy world if Calgary isn't awarded the games do the Flames just give in and pay for the whole thing themselves?

C'mon man... If Calgary is awarded the games then the Flames are going to start negotiating in overdrive because the city will be spending around $120M to build an arena and If they want that money to go towards an arena that they can use (and not a midsized one in foothills) they'll be talking turkey pretty damn hard pretty damn fast.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Really?... So in your fantasy world if Calgary isn't awarded the games do the Flames just give in and pay for the whole thing themselves?

C'mon man... If Calgary is awarded the games then the Flames are going to start negotiating in overdrive because the city will be spending around $120M to build an arena and If they want that money to go towards an arena that they can use (and not a midsized one in foothills) they'll be talking turkey pretty damn hard pretty damn fast.

No, they've already said they're going to leave if they don't get an arena given to them.

[transplant99]

Negotiations like this are all about pressure points.

What pressure is there on the Flames at this point?

How much pressure will be on the city should they be awarded the games....and still not have an adequate facility to host one of the two marquee events the games has to offer?

It's not a "fantasy world"......it's business. They aren't just going to change their idea of what they want just because the Olympics are coming, as that makes zero difference to them as a business.

This is pretty straight forward stuff.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Pretty sure if the City is awarded the Games that the City gives even less of a #### of giving the Flames anything seeing as the City will, you know, already have the Games. The pressure on the City reverts to zero if they get the Games, they don't need an arena at that point, clearly. You can claim hosting the Olympics in the Dome would be embarrassing, but that's not really relevant.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Pretty sure if the City is awarded the Games that the City gives even less of a #### of giving the Flames anything seeing as the City will, you know, already have the Games. The pressure on the City reverts to zero if they get the Games, they don't need an arena at that point, clearly. You can claim hosting the Olympics in the Dome would be embarrassing, but that's not really relevant.

Ummm...they are still going to need an anchor tenant for the new facility....and there is no way they are getting the games without a new arena. Full stop. One of either hockey or figure skating would be showcased in another spot.

There is zero chance the 7000 seat arena is the one built either...at least not the only one.

That would leave a brand new state of the art facility sitting in Vic Park...and no one to attract users to it.

Simply isn't happening.

[Senator Clay Davis]

So you're saying the current Olympic proposal, which contains no new arena and mostly has everything happening at the Dome, is actually a total deception, and that there secretly is a new arena hidden in there? That sounds like a plan worth investing in, a fraudulent one.

[Flamenspiel]

I don't see any case in which the arena is built without the extra government funding provided by the Olympic games, that was the case in 1988(97.7 million dollars) and it will be the case again.

Without the games, I don't see how they can come to an agreement.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

So you're saying the current Olympic proposal, which contains no new arena and mostly has everything happening at the Dome, is actually a total deception, and that there secretly is a new arena hidden in there? That sounds like a plan worth investing in, a fraudulent one.

There is a new arena in the current Olympic proposal. 1/3 the size of a new NHL arena, and 1/3 the pricetag. So now you can take that money, plus some of the money put into upgrading the Saddledome to build a new NHL arena.

So instead of trying to come up with $600M, now all parties just need to come up with $400-450M.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by ken0042

There is a new arena in the current Olympic proposal. 1/3 the size of a new NHL arena, and 1/3 the pricetag. So now you can take that money, plus some of the money put into upgrading the Saddledome to build a new NHL arena.

So instead of trying to come up with $600M, now all parties just need to come up with $400-450M.

But an NHL arena is not the actual proposal, so yeah, it's deception to try and get it through. But hey the IOC and the City can definitely be truste.....I almost wrote that whole thing out without laughing. So close.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

So you're saying the current Olympic proposal, which contains no new arena and mostly has everything happening at the Dome, is actually a total deception, and that there secretly is a new arena hidden in there? That sounds like a plan worth investing in, a fraudulent one.

There is a proposal for a new arena.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

So you're saying the current Olympic proposal, which contains no new arena and mostly has everything happening at the Dome, is actually a total deception, and that there secretly is a new arena hidden in there? That sounds like a plan worth investing in, a fraudulent one.

No, what he's saying is that the IOC is going to select the Calgary bid (that contains only the mid-sized arena in the foothills cluster) but then after having accepted the bid (with no new NHL-sized arena) they will then travel back in time and decide to not accept the bid because there is no new NHL sized arena.

Originally Posted by transplant99

If Calgary is awarded the games then i say thanks but no thanks,

Originally Posted by transplant99

...and there is no way they are getting the games without a new arena.

That's quite the Xanatos Gambit the Flames are running. Fiendishly clever... AKA the first thing you proffer can't happen without the second part you proffer which can't happen without the first part you... (and so on and so on).

[troutman]

Thanked for reference to the Xanatos Gambit!

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Parallex

No, what he's saying is that the IOC is going to select the Calgary bid (that contains only the mid-sized arena in the foothills cluster) but then after having accepted the bid (with no new NHL-sized arena) they will then travel back in time and decide to not accept the bid because there is no new NHL sized arena.






That's quite the Xanatos Gambit the Flames are running. Fiendishly clever... AKA the first thing you proffer can't happen without the second part you proffer which can't happen without the first part you... (and so on and so on).

not at all what i am saying, sorry you cannot comprehend it

[GreenLantern2814]

Surely the City is operating as though the Victoria Park project is independent of the Olympic bid. They're not hinging the development of a new arena on whether or not they get the Olympics.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by transplant99

not at all what i am saying, sorry you cannot comprehend it

I comprehend that you said that if you were the Flames that you would wait until the bid was settled and if the City won tell them "No"...

If I am Flames ownership, I politely listen to whatever it is the city has to say but commit to absolutely nothing until the Olympic thing is decided one way or another.

If Calgary is awarded the games then i say thanks but no thanks

You then go on to say that they won't get the games if they don't have an NHL arena...

and there is no way they are getting the games without a new arena. Full stop.

I appreciate the lengths you're willing to go to to try and portray this as some sort of no lose (Xanatos Gambit) situation for CSEC but your logic is strained at best. So... what you wrote a post describing what the Flames would do in a situation that you describe as having "no way" to happen? I mean I can appreciate good fan fiction (I assume Ken King will play the role of Ensign Mary-Sue here) but I think your plot needs work.

[DiracSpike]

As of right now there is no full size arena proposal in the bid details, just a 7000 seat arena that is not wanted or needed, basically the epitome of Olympic infrastructure. A specialty arena for curling or short track speed skating for two weeks in February and then the home of....? into the future. People can infer all they want in to that growing but it's a big step to go from that kind of facility to the 18,000+ seat arena needed for big league sports and concerts. All that is to say any deductions based on a full sized arena in the proposal exist only in people's imaginations. It's interesting to see some people try to use this 7000 seat arena as a sprinboard to the full arena we all seem to want, but with the weird and expensive intermediary step of the olympics. Espcially when a lot of those people were staunchly against giving the owners any money but now seem to be over the moon to hand even more to the IOC.