[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

The team might be better in the long run, but there is absolutely no way they are better today than they were on Saturday morning. We gave up the best defenseman and arguably the best forward in the deal for possibly the best defenseman and probably will become the best forward.

I will argue that point on the basis that the Flames definitely did not give up the best forward in the deal. Lindholm is a better player than Ferland today, and will be for many more years to come. But moreover, I think the balance this trade provides to the whole lineup improves the entire team overall. Lindholm provides a tonne of options in the top-six that simply did not work with Ferland. Moving Brodie back with Giordano, and adding a better skating big defenseman like Hanifin to the second pairing removes some of the effectiveness of the first pair, but I think solidifies the top four overall. Besides, I also think that the Giordano-Brodie pair will also see a slight return in Giordano's own offensive production. We will see how it all pans out, but simply displacing goal- and point-totals from last season between outgoing and incoming players is totally artificial, and does not really tell us a lot about what has changed through this deal.

It's really impossible to judge a true winner right now, because as you said this was a hockey deal and the Flames gambled on potential, but I don't think for a second the team is now better at this point in time.

The thing I don't get is why people are so fixated on declaring a "winner" in this deal. Maybe down the road a team will look to have come out ahead in this, but I think right now both teams made a hell of a trade: Carolina gets the best player with three years left on a good contract. Calgary gets younger, faster, more balanced and has added long-term core pieces. I think the trade was really fair, and the diversity of reactions serves to illustrate this.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Ferland was an important player, and I don't think anyone is dismissing his abilities.

The problem is, he's 1 year away from UFA. He has concussion issues. He hasn't played like Ferland in a while. He is streaky in a bad way. All of those combine together to make him an expendable asset. If he repeated his performance this upcoming season, he'd probably get 3.5-4 million on the open market. He isn't worth that. Anything more than 2.25 frankly is nuts for what he brings, but some team would sign him to something that starts with a 3.

He's streaky, but if he repeated his performance this past season, he'd get 3.5-4 million? So is he streaky or is he not?

On a game to game basis of course he is streaky. He's not a star player and isn't paid or expected to play like one. If he wasn't streaky, he'd be a $7 million dollar player, but why are we faulting him for something he cannot possibly be?

Furthermore, we deride Ferland's performance down the stretch last season when Lindholm was even less productive.

Adding Reaves also makes sense due to the fact that Ferland was a good player for adding that toughness and him leaving creates a hole in that regard. Replacing that aspect is now a need, and having the ability to get Reaves would help replace that aspect.

So you agree that losing Ferland creates a hole in the lineup and you want to replace him with Ryan Reaves, possession black hole, 4-goal scorer? Is toughness only measured by how many times your fist punches a face? Reaves isn't going to forecheck like Ferland, he isn't going to hold onto the puck like Ferland.

Is the grass always greener for other teams?

[CaptainCrunch]

@textcritic

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I will argue that point on the basis that the Flames definitely did not give up the best forward in the deal. Lindholm is a better player than Ferland today, and will be for many more years to come. But moreover, I think the balance this trade provides to the whole lineup improves the entire team overall. Lindholm provides a tonne of options in the top-six that simply did not work with Ferland. Moving Brodie back with Giordano, and adding a better skating big defenseman like Hanifin to the second pairing removes some of the effectiveness of the first pair, but I think solidifies the top four overall. Besides, I also think that the Giordano-Brodie pair will also see a slight return in Giordano's own offensive production. We will see how it all pans out, but simply displacing goal- and point-totals from last season between outgoing and incoming players is totally artificial, and does not really tell us a lot about what has changed through this deal.


The thing I don't get is why people are so fixated on declaring a "winner" in this deal. Maybe down the road a team will look to have come out ahead in this, but I think right now both teams made a hell of a trade: Carolina gets the best player with three years left on a good contract. Calgary gets younger, faster, more balanced and has added ong-term core pieces. I think the trade was really fair, and the diversity of reactions serves to illustrate this.

There's a pretty good chance that in two years, Carolina will have neither Fox nor Ferland, Calgary will have their two guys under long term deals (including UFA years) and Hamilton will be heading to his pre-UFA year.

[Love]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Furthermore, we deride Ferland's performance down the stretch last season when Lindholm was even less productive.

Lindholm had 17 points in 33 games post ASB while Ferland had 11 in 29

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Love

Lindholm had 17 points in 33 games post ASB while Ferland had 11 in 29

Ferland was also on the top line which was still producing (albeit with a broken down Monahan). Lindholm was on the second line (but with decent players) and often switching positions.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

He's streaky, but if he repeated his performance this past season, he'd get 3.5-4 million? So is he streaky or is he not?

You can repeat an offensive total of 40 points and be a streaky player. You could get almost half your goals in a 5 game stretch and a 4 game stretch like Ferland did this season. He's great for those specific games, but for the other 70 that aren't in that stretch, you've got a black hole in your offensive lineup. He is not a good/consistent enough player to play on the top 6 permanently.

On a game to game basis of course he is streaky. He's not a star player and isn't paid or expected to play like one. If he wasn't streaky, he'd be a $7 million dollar player, but why are we faulting him for something he cannot possibly be?

He doesn't play well enough away from the puck to be put in a top role. His shot is great, his physical play is great. Everything else in his game is more suited to the 4th line.

Furthermore, we deride Ferland's performance down the stretch last season when Lindholm was even less productive.

Despite being down offensively down the stretch, Lindholm was still more consistently contributing than Ferland down the stretch.

So you agree that losing Ferland creates a hole in the lineup and you want to replace him with Ryan Reaves, possession black hole, 4-goal scorer? Is toughness only measured by how many times your fist punches a face? Reaves isn't going to forecheck like Ferland, he isn't going to hold onto the puck like Ferland.

Reaves would likely only play when they are going up against teams with tougher players. If you're facing a finesse team, a guy like Lazar or whomever the regular 12th/13th forward would play. Gives you options. Just because Reaves is a possession black hole does not make him an ineffective player. People are too single minded about advanced stats. Of course the fighter and tough guy is going to be a less effective player at generating offense. His job is to make sure that teams stay away from Gaudreau and the other star players on this team. His job is to deter teams from doing dumb things to the Flames. The Flames were lacking in players willing to stand up for their teammates. Reaves would do that.

Is the grass always greener for other teams?

It is not like Carolina got raked over the coals here. They got Svechnikov, which made Lindholm expendable. They were able to get a physical player that can play a bit to give them some jam, which is what they were lacking. They upgraded their defense both in terms of getting Hamilton, but also with the acquisition of Fox (although I doubt they keep him for signability reasons). It wasn't like they gave up everything and the Flames gave up nothing. It made sense for each club to give up what they did. Calgary is in a different spot in their roster building than the Hurricanes are. That is the difference.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

The team might be better in the long run, but there is absolutely no way they are better today than they were on Saturday morning. We gave up the best defenseman and arguably the best forward in the deal for possibly the best defenseman and probably will become the best forward.

It's really impossible to judge a true winner right now, because as you said this was a hockey deal and the Flames gambled on potential, but I don't think for a second the team is now better at this point in time.

Don't think there's much of an argument to be honest.

Their goal totals are close, Lindholm could get Ferland's linemates this year, and Lindholm does virtually everything save physicality on the ice better.

I like Ferland this isn't an attack, but it's not a backwards move in year one, and with Ferland's likely exit in a year it's a no brainer from the forwards.

The backend is a step back for now (or maybe forever) however.

[red sky]

Adding Lindholm to that line will make them more defensively responsible which was a glaring issue last year. Ferland was often guilty of blind passes to the middle of the ice when trying to get out of their zone. I look forward to having two players capable of controlling the puck through the neutral zone instead of just Johnny.

[Geeoff]

It remains to be seen but I think Ferland just had his career year by a long shot and I don't think he will match those totals again.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Lindholm could get Ferland's linemates this year, and Lindholm does virtually everything save physicality on the ice better.

From watching Lindholm's little highlight package, I saw nothing like this ability to score from distance:






But around here everyone thinks Gaudreau was just getting Ferland wide open tap-ins.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

But around here everyone thinks Gaudreau was just getting Ferland wide open tap-ins.

You can't be a plug and score easy tap ins. They're an art - they're why Monahan makes $6.35M. Plugs can score with off feeds from players like Johnny because they have a physical tool. A shot, in this case. But Ferland can't score those tap ins because he doesn't see the game that way. He can't melt back into space behind coverage the way Monahan does.

Lindholm four seasons comparable to Ferland's one good one where Ferland played with two world class linemates. Throughout his career, Lindholm has done consistently more, at an earlier age, with much less than Ferland.

We are getting Lindholm in the prime of his career. If he plays on the top line, he's the best player they've had to work with since Hudler.

If Tkachuk goes to the top line, you have either a #2C or the 3M line becomes the EMM line. I think Tkachuk is good enough to carry his own line, but there's always something to be said for loading up your top line and daring the world to stop you.

[Textcritic]

I am pretty intrigued by a Tkachuk · Lindholm · Bennett combination.

For all his scoring woes, Bennett is good at moving his feet—Lindholm looks a little like Bennett except when he shoots the puck goes in, and his linemates are more often than not able to convert his passes. I bet that line would be hell to play against, and could be one of the best forechecking groups in the League.

[Kickazzflames]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I am pretty intrigued by a Tkachuk · Lindholm · Bennett combination.

For all his scoring woes, Bennett is good at moving his feet—Lindholm looks a little like Bennett except when he shoots the puck goes in, and his linemates are more often than not able to convert his passes. I bet that line would be hell to play against, and could be one of the best forechecking groups in the League.

Bennett was always good at generating scoring chances. That's the big reason it's hard to want to ever move the guy. Some nights you feel like he is on the verge of breaking out, and some nights he looks so snake bitten it hurts to watch.

If he wasn't actually making things happen himself than I would be concerned.

[N-E-B]

I think Ferland is being a bit underrated here and Lindholm is getting a bit overrated due to his draft pedigree. I think he's a good player, I'm excited to have him, but I'm not crazy about the price they paid to acquire him and I don't think he makes the team better today than they were with Ferland.

Ferland could have been a product of Monahan and Gaudreau, he likely was, but Brouwer and Chiasson (just off the top of my head) never put up those numbers when they played with those two. Ferland still had to be good enough to play with them and he was. It's possible he regresses but I also thought it was just as likely he continued his success.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

I think Ferland is being a bit underrated here and Lindholm is getting a bit overrated due to his draft pedigree. I think he's a good player, I'm excited to have him, but I'm not crazy about the price they paid to acquire him and I don't think he makes the team better today than they were with Ferland.

I also think that Ferland is getting a little underrated by some. I love the player, and I liked him a lot on the top line, but as much as I liked what Ferland brought to the top line, Lindholm is an upgrade at every position regardless of where he plays be it with Monahan and Gaudreau, or as the new #2 centre, on the powerplay and the penalty kill. He may already be the team's fourth best forward.

[Jason14h]

Didn’t Ferland also hit the most post / crossbars in the league? He was leading post all star game I know

I think we will miss his shot on the 1st line. They need a sniper to fill in on that line still

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

From watching Lindholm's little highlight package, I saw nothing like this ability to score from distance:






But around here everyone thinks Gaudreau was just getting Ferland wide open tap-ins.

Uhh I think Dougie Hamilton scored more tap in goals than Ferland. Tap ins are not really Ferland's strong suit.

[420since1974]

I see a lot of similarities between Hudler and Lindholm.
They both played at C and RW.
Neither of them were afraid to go to the "dirty" areas and both were good at passing.
Hudler was a little better at goal scoring, Lindholm better at face-offs.
If you look at their first five FULL seasons:
Stat Hudler Lindholm
GP 393 374
G 86 64
A 125 124
P 211 188

Hopefully, Lindhom will work as well with Monahan and Gaudreau as Hudler did.

[CsInMyBlood]

I would not be surprised if Ferland has more goals than Lindholm again this season.