[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by PugnaciousIntern

GG’s shoot from anywhere approach would be one. Very few scoring opportunities compared with shots

Yeah, this does not align with what I saw last year. If anything, the Flames were guilty more often than not of passing up shots, and over-passing—especially on the powerplay.

What I saw was a team that struggled with the puck for always picking corners and missing the net altogether. I saw a group of players who would not get the puck off their sticks quickly enough, which allowed for the other team to anticipate and take away the scoring opportunity.

None of that reflects a “shoot from anywhere for high CORSI” narrative that has since developed.

[tkflames]

Old man rant: Listening to Peters this morning...the nicknames are cringeworthy. Johnny, Monny, Lindy, Hanny...

Why can't players have any nickname but their last name with a y or er.

Even if they were lame, but related to guys family or name like Lindholm = couch and Hannifin =boat, it would be far less painful on the ears...

Clearly it's July 24th...

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This doesn't work though.

Say a team wanted a corsi event so they shot from center ice ... all they are doing is giving up possession and the other team brings it back at you. A game of taking muffins from distances wouldn't pad corsi because you wouldn't sustain enough time to run up totals.

I see this "fake corsi" thing from time to time but it's a fallacy.

You actually need to sustain pressure to out corsi the opposition, you can't fake it.

Huh? None of that makes sense. Corsi does not consider pressure or actual possession time. It's a shot calculator. It doesn't care how long you had the puck before shooting it.

If you take shots from everywhere and the opposition doesn't, you'll likely get an advantageous corsi because the opposition is more likely to lose the puck in some other way than by shooting it away, such as getting their cross-crease pass intercepted.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Yeah, this does not align with what I saw last year. If anything, the Flames were guilty more often than not of passing up shots, and over-passing—especially on the powerplay.

What I saw was a team that struggled with the puck for always picking corners and missing the net altogether. I saw a group of players who would not get the puck off their sticks quickly enough, which allowed for the other team to anticipate and take away the scoring opportunity.

None of that reflects a “shoot from anywhere for high CORSI” narrative that has since developed.

Definitely true on the PP. I'd bet they were among the lowest teams in shots per 2 minute powerplay. Some guys shot from anywhere - Frolik (usually centre chest on the goalie), Stone (blocked or wide). I forget who it was but there was one guy who was always high and wide - maybe Jankowski or Bennett?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The Flames did waste a lot of scoring chances last year by hitting posts or missing the net at a rate that was probably amongst the highest in the league (certainly the highest I can recall in recent years) so you can't blame the coach for everything but when a team collectively is missing the net so often you have to wonder why.

Missed shot data goes back to 2009-10.

So out of 271 teams in that time period the 2017-18 Flames are first place for missing the net with 1232 or 15 times per game.

The median team in this list would have 942 misses for 11.5 per game. That's 3.5+ more misses per game than the average team.

That adds up.

When you look into the types it gets interesting. The Lightning have 6 entries in the shooting high category, a perennial very good offensive hockey team. The teams that shoot wide however seem to be Calgary last year, and the Kings often; a team that always has a high corsi mark but doesn't score very well.

I think they were too set, didn't see anything because the goalie could challenge and tried to pick corners and missed.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Itse

Huh? None of that makes sense. Corsi does not consider pressure or actual possession time. It's a shot calculator. It doesn't care how long you had the puck before shooting it.

If you take shots from everywhere and the opposition doesn't, you'll likely get an advantageous corsi because the opposition is more likely to lose the puck in some other way than by shooting it away, such as getting their cross-crease pass intercepted.

I'll well aware of what corsi is thanks.

How do you ever get the puck enough to get a high corsi counts if you just get rid of it when you get it?

You have to have the puck to run up shot attempts.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Old man rant: Listening to Peters this morning...the nicknames are cringeworthy. Johnny, Monny, Lindy, Hanny...

Why can't players have any nickname but their last name with a y or er.

Even if they were lame, but related to guys family or name like Lindholm = couch and Hannifin =boat, it would be far less painful on the ears...

Clearly it's July 24th...

I dont know what to tell you, thats just the way hockey and players have been since the dawn of time.

We have lamented this great injustice for eons but to no avail.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Old man rant: Listening to Peters this morning...the nicknames are cringeworthy. Johnny, Monny, Lindy, Hanny...

Why can't players have any nickname but their last name with a y or er.

Even if they were lame, but related to guys family or name like Lindholm = couch and Hannifin =boat, it would be far less painful on the ears...

Clearly it's July 24th...

TBF, they sometimes just go with an "s" (Backs)

The best nickname is Chucky. Because it fits.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Old man rant: Listening to Peters this morning...the nicknames are cringeworthy. Johnny, Monny, Lindy, Hanny...

Why can't players have any nickname but their last name with a y or er.

Even if they were lame, but related to guys family or name like Lindholm = couch and Hannifin =boat, it would be far less painful on the ears...

Clearly it's July 24th...

Well, that one is Gaudreaus name.

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The Flames did waste a lot of scoring chances last year by hitting posts or missing the net at a rate that was probably amongst the highest in the league (certainly the highest I can recall in recent years) so you can't blame the coach for everything but when a team collectively is missing the net so often you have to wonder why.

Could that be that they were shooting through or around guys because the defense was set? Lots of shoots, even from high quality locations with the goalie and defense set. Flames were either being to fine with their shoots, ie; no where to shoot on the goalie (trying to pick corners) or through defensemen. Not enough lateral movement especially cross seem passes.

I like Bingo's take in the previous post. It sums up my feelings.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'll well aware of what corsi is thanks.

How do you ever get the puck enough back to get a high corsi if you just get rid of it when you get it?

You have to have the puck to run up shot attempts.

By your logic, raising the quality of your shot somehow generates more shots.

This makes no sense.

It does not matter for corsi whether you get rid of the puck immediately or later on. It just matters how you lost it. If you lost the puck by taking a shot, that's good for corsi. Shot quality is irrelevant.

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Old man rant: Listening to Peters this morning...the nicknames are cringeworthy. Johnny, Monny, Lindy, Hanny...

Why can't players have any nickname but their last name with a y or er.

Even if they were lame, but related to guys family or name like Lindholm = couch and Hannifin =boat, it would be far less painful on the ears...

Clearly it's July 24th...

My hockey team had nicknames like Princess, Anaconda, Fatman and Chubby Boy, Neil, Rockstar, Wheels, Hippy, Ricky Bobby, Tub of Gio, The #### And Balls Line. Would those nicknames be more exceptable for the media? I guarantee they have nicknames they will never share.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Itse

By your logic, raising the quality of your shot somehow generates more shots.

This makes no sense.

It does not matter for corsi whether you get rid of the puck immediately or later on. It just matters how you lost it. If you lost the puck by taking a shot, that's good for corsi. Shot quality is irrelevant.

Not sure we differ as much as you think.

I'm just saying you need a level of sustained pressure ... be it rebounds, or scrambles, or turning the breakout from the opposition away to get up to the levels of corsi for events that the Flames had last year.

Shooting from everywhere gets you a shot attempt when you do it, but it makes it less likely to get the multiple attempts you need to become a high corsi team. You're chasing the game too much to get into those levels.

The Flames were a high event team both ways, but had high splits too. They had the puck more than the opposition but didn't finish due to other reasons (goalie set, shooting wide, too predictable)

Teams that lead the league in home plate shots aren't shoot from anywhere corsi stat chasing hockey teams.

[FBI]

I can't wait till we have a stat that tells us how long we ACTUALLY had possession of the puck. Like on our stick, passing around, stickhandling etc.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Shooting from everywhere gets you a shot attempt when you do it, but it makes it less likely to get the multiple attempts you need to become a high corsi team. You're chasing the game too much to get into those levels.

Speaking theoretically here, but... does it?

I would assume that the opposing team will fight a lot harder for pucks in the crease than shots that got blocked far away from the goal, so by that logic crappy shots that get blocked should be easier to recover than good ones that the goalie stops just barely.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Itse

Speaking theoretically here, but... does it?

I would assume that the opposing team will fight a lot harder for pucks in the crease than shots that got blocked far away from the goal, so by that logic crappy shots that get blocked should be easier to recover than good ones that the goalie stops just barely.

Might be easier, as the defending team, to retrieve shots from "anywhere" as the offense would be a bit more spread out.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Itse

Speaking theoretically here, but... does it?

I would assume that the opposing team will fight a lot harder for pucks in the crease than shots that got blocked far away from the goal, so by that logic crappy shots that get blocked should be easier to recover than good ones that the goalie stops just barely.

What is your endgame here?

To prove the Flames were a perimeter team that were shot happy driving up corsi stats without actual scoring chances?

Because the stats just don't support any of that.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Just to add an opinion in this circling argument.

Perimeter shots mean the goalie doesn’t have to cover it up. Which means no offensive zone faceoff. Which would likely lead to you getting your primary offensive line out again for a won faceoff and another shot, rather than seeing the goalie play the puck to defenseman and having it go the other way.

Stats are a tool. You have to analyze them and infer the cause.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Galakanokis

I guarantee they have nicknames they will never share.

Apparently Alex Semin had a good one... Rhymes with, uh, Fizz.

[Yrebmi]

Theoretically a club might coach their players to hold off shooting until they had a teammate in good position to regain possession in event of a miss.
Such a practice would allow defenders and goalie time to get in the way - which would in turn force the shooter to aim more to the edges and increase likelihood of a miss.

So not saying that happened - just answering how a team could "fake" corsi.