Canadian Military News

[Madman]

Herald article on the current situation with the F-35s.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Ta...546/story.html

[GoinAllTheWay]

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Very interesting article. I do wonder what the odds of everyone walking away from it are? I just don't see how the yanks are going to be able to afford to buy 2400 of those things.

I wouldn't mind at all seeing a made in Canada fighter hit the drawing boards. I suspect we don't have enough time to do that though as the F-18s are scheduled to retire in what, 2016?

[CaptainCrunch]

We will never build fighters, we don't have the production facilities, and we don't have the market to make it worthwhile to ramp up that kind of industry.

The Boeings and Lockheed Martins get orders for hundreds or planes to thousands of planes, we would be too late in the game to compete with those monsters.

I'm still convinced that we need to get as advanced of a fighter jet as possible and our next purchase has to be 5th generation. We have a relatively small airforce that's going to shrink further, and the next planes which are due in the next 5 to 8 years have to last 30 years and be able to be properly upgraded throughout that life span.

We've invested in the f-35 program, there are definite economic benefits to the f-35.

There are reasons why there are 5th generation fighters in production, the Chinese, Japanese, Indian, American, Russians and the South Koreans are all moving into the 5th generation fighters, because it gives a huge kill advantage over anything in the sky.

We are looking at an airforce of 65 fighters, with 60 being actively deployed, and 5 being used for training and test bedding.

Even among 5th generation fighters, right now in terms of costs your going to pay in the same area, but there's only one being manufactured by a reliable ally, and only one that will let us take care of maintenance and part manufacture in Calgary.

Are there some issues with the F-35? There is a communication issue in the arctic, but they're already looking at a pod add on for sat communication for that.

But I think that there is a confusion in reporting about trouble with the f-35 because of the variants. But that's not to say that there aren't problems with the handling and avionics that need to be fixed before delivery.

[Bindair Dundat]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

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Very interesting article. I do wonder what the odds of everyone walking away from it are? I just don't see how the yanks are going to be able to afford to buy 2400 of those things.

I wouldn't mind at all seeing a made in Canada fighter hit the drawing boards. I suspect we don't have enough time to do that though as the F-18s are scheduled to retire in what, 2016?

Sadly, it's not an option for us.

First and foremost, we need to have a degree of "interoperability" with the US systems, to keep up our end of the NORAD commitment. Yeah, we could buy the avionics suites from the US but these are half of the problem with "Lightning II" at the moment...

Bombardier (Canadair) builds one hell of a "regional jet" but let's be serious here.

Building something like the F-35 (or the EADS "Typhoon", or the "Rafaele") is more than a "few" steps beyond bending sheet metal and casting basic structural components.

Sadly...that's about all we can do as with regards to airframe manufacture. (Yes, I know...I'm grossly simplifying here).

As much as the F-35 is turning into a "trillion dollar boondoggle"...how on earth could you expect us to design and build a competitive "Made in Canada" solution? The last jet fighters produced here were Gen 3 CF-5's...the last one (116849?) rolled out of Cartierville in the mid-70's.

The world of indigenous military aviation has passed us by...

AND YES...Cancelling the "ARROW" WAS the right thing to do...not having another "iron in the fire" at Avro was the real fiasco.

We could have easily designed an indigenous airframe to carry the NASSAR attack system, powered it with the "Iroquois" engine, and built this (instead of 104's) if our future role in NATO would have been clearly defined back when these decisions were being made.

The much beloved/lamented CF-105 was a "bridge too far" for the tech of the times. "Look down, Shoot down" onboard radar using vaccuum tubes?

For that matter, so was the USAF/ADC's whole "Ultimate Interceptor" aka F-106A; difference being?

The USA could afford to bury untold billions of mispent dollars back then...look at the XB-70 ffs.

Canada couldn't.

And here we sit...40 years on. Sweating the particulars over ~60 machines which will carry us forward until UAV's are the norm.

The F-35 will happen...Washington has too much into it for any other outcome. Should we get off the bandwagon and abandon the taxpayers money that we've been investing since the late '90's?

That's the debate, but IMO?

Not likely.

Cheers, Ron

[Bigtime]

We could get these from Bombardier/Raytheon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raytheon_Sentinel

Although I don't really see a role for it in the Canadian Forces, perhaps a more dedicated coastal patrol/sub-hunter version?

[Madman]

The Royal Canadian Air Force is heading home from it's Libyan mission.

http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loc...ub=CalgaryHome

Good to read that the mission allowed our troops to use some new technologies in a real life experience.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

We could get these from Bombardier/Raytheon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raytheon_Sentinel

Although I don't really see a role for it in the Canadian Forces, perhaps a more dedicated coastal patrol/sub-hunter version?

We currently use the Aurora and its sister the Acturus for those roles and they seem to do a pretty good job.

[Bigtime]

Yeah I know we upgraded the Aurora's just recently (and they performed very well in Libya), just with the discussion of a "made in Canada" vehicle I thought I'd throw that into the mix!

[CaptainCrunch]

Frankly I've never liked or trusted Bombardier when it comes to military contracts, they certainly put the knife in on the Iltis jeep purchase, and everytime they do a government contract in Canada it tends to overrun.

[Bigtime]

Let's go south of the border and get some of those new 737's that they are building for military use. They even have hardpoints for weapons!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_P-8_Poseidon

[GoinAllTheWay]

Oh there is now WAY we could build our own fighters, I just think it would be cool but I probably should have written that in green. I think we have the brains to do it but in reality it would never happen. I'm fully aware of that. Frankly, I was shocked we have the ability to build our own naval ships.

And ya, I used to be all over the Arrow but after reading into it more I agree, it wasn't going to work out. It was a hell of a ride though!

[afc wimbledon]

The problem for Canada is while we don't want to admit it we are utterly dependant on the US to protect us as our 3 potential 'enemies' are the US, Russia and China, none of which we can protect ourselves from at all.
Therefore what ever we are buying is not for self defense, we are buying a few jets to send off with the americans to gain political credit in what ever half arsed war they want to start next, to be frank it would make the most sense to do this as cheaply as possible as the real mission (getting political credit) can be achieved with anything that flies and has a maple leaf on that NBC can film, it doesn't have to be able to do anything after that.

[LChoy]

Does Canada have the ability to build their own drone aircraft?
They were popular purchases in Afghanistan and can be used to patrol remote parts of our territory. I imagine it would also be faster to train drone technicians than pilots

[Bigtime]

There was a company that was going to build a hangar and production facilities for UAV's out at Springbank airport. That was about 5 years ago, I don't think it ever went ahead.

[Barnes]

This is a Canadian company. Pretty cool.

http://www.mmist.ca/

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Therefore what ever we are buying is not for self defense

Really? You don't see any need for domestic security? Zero chance of insurgency or terrorism on Canadian soil, eh?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lchoy

Does Canada have the ability to build their own drone aircraft?
They were popular purchases in Afghanistan and can be used to patrol remote parts of our territory. I imagine it would also be faster to train drone technicians than pilots

Drones aren't really effective for what we need the fighters for, there are also issues with arctic communications which would effect drones just like they effect the F-35's.

[comrade]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Really? You don't see any need for domestic security? Zero chance of insurgency or terrorism on Canadian soil, eh?

Are you implying that you foresee the possibility of an insurgency breaking out within Canadian borders? Not to mention how would these new fighters succeed against terrorists inside Canada where other fighters have failed?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Really? You don't see any need for domestic security? Zero chance of insurgency or terrorism on Canadian soil, eh?

I see little possibility jet fighters will be of any use at all to fight Quebec seperatists or the Mohawk warrior brotherhood.

I can, on the other hand see great use for maritime patrol aircraft, search and rescue etc. I am of the opinion we should spend money where it will be most used.

[LChoy]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Drones aren't really effective for what we need the fighters for, there are also issues with arctic communications which would effect drones just like they effect the F-35's.

I didn't mean it as a replacement for fighters, but just wondering if Canada would have the infrastructure to build our own