[Rumour] McKenzie: Hearing the Flames are very intent on moving one of Hamonic or Brodie

[ForeverFlameFan]

I like both equally. At this point I would entertain trading Hamonic if the price that a team is willing to pay for him is far greater than Brodie's. However, if the same offer is on the table for either player then it's bye bye Brodie for me.

[soulchoice]

Brodie has his warts at times. Hence he isn’t a number one dman. He is however in my opinion a solid number 2 defenseman. Harmonic brings a different game but to put him on the first pairing would be playing him out of his element. Due to his transition and overall ability. His is a solid 3/4.

I still think Brodie is the second best defenseman on the team.

If he won’t be resigned or is expecting a huge raise, sure, explore trade options. But to think Andersson will step in and be as effective over the course of 82 games is something I’m not willing to explore just yet.

[djsFlames]

Brodie has much greater peaks and valleys in his game, sometimes both showing up within the same game, as we witnessed many times.

Basically when his mind is sharp and he's skating, he's a perfect #2, when those things aren't there you'd rather he sat.

Hamonic is generally quieter in both the good and bad senses, but brings qualities that absolutely every winning team needs back there. Him and Hanifin were ####ing brutal in games 2-5, though.

[icarus]

I'd hate to lose either guy. That said, the point of developing young players is that you can flip older guys for valuable assets. It would be hard to see either go but I get it. Whoever can land the best package in return I suppose is who I'd rather see traded. Both are great players IMO.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

If I'm Treliving I'm moving Brodie, but not for the reason you'd expect.

Brodie has been part of this rebuilding core that has struggled to rise to the occasion mentally. While I will admit that Hamonic didn't have a great playoff series this year, it is MacKinnon and co. so I'll give him a small pass. In years past, Hamonic has reliably risen to the occasion in big games and playoffs. Brodie hasn't done so since 2014.

I think Brodie's issues are mostly mental, as his physical gifts haven't diminished much over the years. It's not so much a problem of "oops, I made a mistake", because all players do that, even Giordano. The problem is that when he makes a mistake or something goes wrong, his game entirely falls apart and you have to drop him down to the 3rd pairing to shelter him until he figures it out. Sometimes that takes a game, sometimes it takes weeks. Hamonic may make mistakes or have bad games, but he doesn't get down and he keeps battling to the end.

But more so, Brodie seems to struggle in big games when the pressure is on. It's a symptom that has been part of this core group for a while now and it doesn't seem to be getting better. We knew that a shake up was going to happen to the core of this team, and it only makes sense that Brodie and his mental fragility would be the most likely to go. Replace him with Andersson who doesn't have his mobility, but also doesn't get rattled and can elevate his game when asked, and you're already doing better.

However, if a Hamonic trade also gives you a good return and cap flexibility, then do it too. I love Hamonic's style of game, but I've learned not to fall too much in love with role players over the years. The only problem with moving Hamonic is that we don't have a prospect who can play that style of game, so you would hope the return involves a young d-man who can play a strong physical defensive game.

So I guess what I'm saying is you can, and possibly should, move both. I'd start with Brodie, but Hamonic can be had as well. Then you let the kids run with it and possibly make a trade near the deadline if needed to shore up the defense.

Start next year with:

Giordano-Andersson
Valimaki-Hanifin
Kylington-Stone

I'm good with that group. I just hope someone can learn to play on their off-side.

[Itse]

It's a good situation to be trading from a position of strength.

We'll have a really inexperienced defense next season though.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Sure. And my opinion is supported by data.

What data? Sure, Brodie scores more points, but at what cost? Brodie plays a high risk game and finds himself the leader in defensive blunders, by a large margin. Brodie's giveaways are the highest of any defender at 100. Hamonic comes in 4th among defensemen at 62. In stats that look at what goes on in our end of the ice I think Hamonic is better. In hits, Hamonic is more than doubles Brodie, 44 to 21. Stone had more hits than Brodie did last season, and Stone only played 14 games. In blocked shots, it isn't even a discussion. Hamonic's 167 is again almost double Brodie's 86. Brodie has Hamonic in points, but beyond that I like the underlying data to Hamonic's game more so than Brodie's. The thing about Hamonic is that he has proven he can be the guy on a defensive pairing. Brodie has shown he can only be effective with Mark Giordano riding shot gun with him. Either of them could be dealt, but I would prefer it be Brodie as I see him totally replaceable by players in the system. We do not have another Travis Hamonic waiting in the wings.

[Heavy Jack]

I like the thoughts and reasoning in that post Cali; with the Jets shopping the rough and tumble Trouba maybe there is a package to be had for him that involves Hamonic?? I feel like Brodie is destined to go to Toronto too.

Hamonic + Frolik

For

Trouba

??

Brodie + 1st

For

Kadri + Kapanen

We would have to find a way to clear some more cap via Stone and Neal though; lots of things to consider obviously.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Title says “one of”.

They aren’t trading both Brodie and Hamonic

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

I like the thoughts and reasoning in that post Cali; with the Jets shopping the rough and tumble Trouba maybe there is a package to be had for him that involves Hamonic?? I feel like Brodie is destined to go to Toronto too.



Hamonic + Frolik



For



Trouba



??



Brodie + 1st



For



Kadri + Kapanen



We would have to find a way to clear some more cap via Stone and Neal though; lots of things to consider obviously.

Winnipeg is moving Trouba for cap reasons as much of anything, they certainly aren’t taking back Frolik in any deal. And one year of Hamonic. They would likely want the value coming back to be Valimaki, for example.

The Toronto deal simply is too much value coming to Calgary for a UFA to be Brodie.


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[Husky]

Brodie for palmieri

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Husky

Brodie for palmieri

2 years of Palmeri is worth more than 1 year of Brodie.


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[Husky]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

2 years of Palmeri is worth more than 1 year of Brodie.


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I dont agree. If NJ isnt competing then 1 year of a top pairing D at the deadline could end up fetching more. Bigger picture thibking for NJ versus short term linear.

[Flash Walken]

If the flames move hamonic instead of Brodie it's because of their relative league wide values.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

If I'm Treliving I'm moving Brodie, but not for the reason you'd expect.

Brodie has been part of this rebuilding core that has struggled to rise to the occasion mentally. While I will admit that Hamonic didn't have a great playoff series this year, it is MacKinnon and co. so I'll give him a small pass. In years past, Hamonic has reliably risen to the occasion in big games and playoffs. Brodie hasn't done so since 2014.

I think Brodie's issues are mostly mental, as his physical gifts haven't diminished much over the years. It's not so much a problem of "oops, I made a mistake", because all players do that, even Giordano. The problem is that when he makes a mistake or something goes wrong, his game entirely falls apart and you have to drop him down to the 3rd pairing to shelter him until he figures it out. Sometimes that takes a game, sometimes it takes weeks. Hamonic may make mistakes or have bad games, but he doesn't get down and he keeps battling to the end.

But more so, Brodie seems to struggle in big games when the pressure is on. It's a symptom that has been part of this core group for a while now and it doesn't seem to be getting better. We knew that a shake up was going to happen to the core of this team, and it only makes sense that Brodie and his mental fragility would be the most likely to go. Replace him with Andersson who doesn't have his mobility, but also doesn't get rattled and can elevate his game when asked, and you're already doing better.

However, if a Hamonic trade also gives you a good return and cap flexibility, then do it too. I love Hamonic's style of game, but I've learned not to fall too much in love with role players over the years. The only problem with moving Hamonic is that we don't have a prospect who can play that style of game, so you would hope the return involves a young d-man who can play a strong physical defensive game.

So I guess what I'm saying is you can, and possibly should, move both. I'd start with Brodie, but Hamonic can be had as well. Then you let the kids run with it and possibly make a trade near the deadline if needed to shore up the defense.

Start next year with:

Giordano-Andersson
Valimaki-Hanifin
Kylington-Stone

I'm good with that group. I just hope someone can learn to play on their off-side.

I’d be fine with that group too, so long as people stop including Kylington as a throw in for every trade proposal. He’s our only D-man with wheels like Brodie.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by New Era

What data? Sure, Brodie scores more points, but at what cost? Brodie plays a high risk game and finds himself the leader in defensive blunders, by a large margin. Brodie's giveaways are the highest of any defender at 100. Hamonic comes in 4th among defensemen at 62. In stats that look at what goes on in our end of the ice I think Hamonic is better. In hits, Hamonic is more than doubles Brodie, 44 to 21. Stone had more hits than Brodie did last season, and Stone only played 14 games. In blocked shots, it isn't even a discussion. Hamonic's 167 is again almost double Brodie's 86. Brodie has Hamonic in points, but beyond that I like the underlying data to Hamonic's game more so than Brodie's. The thing about Hamonic is that he has proven he can be the guy on a defensive pairing. Brodie has shown he can only be effective with Mark Giordano riding shot gun with him. Either of them could be dealt, but I would prefer it be Brodie as I see him totally replaceable by players in the system. We do not have another Travis Hamonic waiting in the wings.

Yeah but apparently that data is just your opinion man.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf_Phan

Move them both!

For draft picks. Give their combined salaries to Tkachuk for a long-term deal.

Flames' D still solid:

Gio Hanifin
Andersson Välimäki
Kylington Fantenberg

Prout
Stone

You nailed the LH RH pairing set-up.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Husky

I dont agree. If NJ isnt competing then 1 year of a top pairing D at the deadline could end up fetching more. Bigger picture thibking for NJ versus short term linear.

That makes zero sense.

NJ aren’t trading one of their best forwards to obtain a trade chip at the deadline. They could always trade Palmeri at the deadline in 2021, and meanwhile they have him for an additional year.

Brodie plays a poor defensive game and is not considered a top pairing d-man. He certainly has value though.


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[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by New Era

What data? Sure, Brodie scores more points, but at what cost? Brodie plays a high risk game and finds himself the leader in defensive blunders, by a large margin. Brodie's giveaways are the highest of any defender at 100. Hamonic comes in 4th among defensemen at 62. In stats that look at what goes on in our end of the ice I think Hamonic is better. In hits, Hamonic is more than doubles Brodie, 44 to 21. Stone had more hits than Brodie did last season, and Stone only played 14 games. In blocked shots, it isn't even a discussion. Hamonic's 167 is again almost double Brodie's 86. Brodie has Hamonic in points, but beyond that I like the underlying data to Hamonic's game more so than Brodie's. The thing about Hamonic is that he has proven he can be the guy on a defensive pairing. Brodie has shown he can only be effective with Mark Giordano riding shot gun with him. Either of them could be dealt, but I would prefer it be Brodie as I see him totally replaceable by players in the system. We do not have another Travis Hamonic waiting in the wings.

What data?
- Points, which matter because of the obvious.
- Plus minus. You want to be on the ice for more goals for than against
- Shots for and against. Hamonic in the playoffs, being in the 30 percent neighbourhood means for every shot your team gets, the other team gets 2.
The stats that matter

Giveaways? Big deal. You have to have the puck to give it away. Hamonic can’t give away what he can’t get, and is more of a low event player.
- Gaudreau had 127 giveaways, and 58 takeaways
- the next 3 players above Brodie in the NHL were also D. Muzzin, Yandle and Doughty all had 102-110 giveaways. Well you know what else? They had 20-27 takeaways. Brodie had 68. Comparatively not too shabby, wouldn’t you say?

Look, these players play different games. You know this. Brodie is a high skill player whose skating is his greatest asset. Hamonic plays a different game, he isn’t great at puck retrieval and pays the price he has to pay in order to be effective. Different styles lead to different stats.

Hits? Why hit a guy when you have the puck? Brodie isn’t Eric Lindros.

I would like if you knock off the ‘can only be effective with Gio’ narrative. That is not proven by anything other than your feelings.
Brodie proved he could be effective with Derek Engelland as well, in case you have forgotten. Won more playoff games and series with him than with anyone.
With Gio, they are only, you know, pretty much the top pairing in the league.

Incidentally, I would take Engelland over Hamonic, but he wanted to live in Vegas

* Fun fact. Smith and Rittich had 71 and 65 giveaways, respectively

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

I'd also prefer to move Brodie over Hamonic, mostly because the latter is more consistent while the former has a skill set that more overlaps with our upcoming D.

Treliving might not want to move Hamonic either, but if he's necessary to make a Neal move palatable then you think about it.