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Old 04-30-2019, 06:04 PM   #101
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Only if you live in an alternate reality where highly drafted major junior players forego the first several years of their North American pro careers. Care to name some high-profile examples?...
How frequently do highly drafted US college players forego the first several years of their professional hockey careers? I think if you are going to make this argument then you need to ensure that the goalposts are in the same place. It seems to me that nearly every highly drafted player from both CHL and NCAA signs with his drafting team when a contract is offered, with very few exceptions.

Here is an exhaustive list of US-college-bound first-round draftees from the past five years:

2018: [Signed with his drafting team]Brady Tkachuk, Quinn Hughes : [Not yet signed]Oliver Wahlstrom, Joel Farabee, Jay O'Brien, K'Andre Miller : [Declined contract offer]N/A

2017: [Signed with his drafting team]Casey Mittelstadt, Jake Oettinger, Shane Bowers, Eeli Tolvanen (traded to Colorado and signed) : [Not yet signed]Josh Norris : [Declined contract offer]N/A

2016: [Signed with his drafting team]Clayton Keller, Charlie McAvoy, Luke Kunin, Kieffer Bellows, Tage Thompson, Trent Frederic, Riley Tufte : [Not yet signed]N/A : [Declined contract offer]N/A

2015: [Signed with his drafting team]Jack Eichel, Noah Hanifin, Zach Werenski, Kyle Connor, Colin White, Brock Boeser, Jack Roslovic : [Not yet signed]N/A : [Declined contract offer]N/A

2014: [Signed with his drafting team]Dylan Larkin, Sonny Milano, Alex Tuch, Nick Schmaltz : [Not yet signed]N/A : [Declined contract offer]N/A
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Old 04-30-2019, 06:53 PM   #102
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The risk isn't so much with the highly drafted college/university players as most are close enough to NHL ready that they will sign sooner rather than later.

The risk is with the one who aren't ready to go pro and need more seasoning at their current level. There comes a point for some that there is a bigger benefit for becoming a free agent.

It should be quite obvious to anyone that drafting an NCAA player comes with a bigger risk than drafting a CHL player.

If the NHL can have different rules for how the rights of European players are held. I don't see why they can't for NCAA players. The fact it never seems to come up as an issue with the BoG tells me that the owners don't care enough about it.
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Old 04-30-2019, 07:26 PM   #103
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People should go back and look at some of the posts made about Kipper after he refused a trade to an eastern team because he wanted to finish his career in Calgary. Or go see what was said about Iggy when he waived his "NMC" to go to Pittsburgh, but most posters focused on how he didn't waive it for Boston. Funny how many people demand loyalty out of teenagers, yet will turn on them the moment there loyalty is no longer needed. Good on Fox for putting himself in a position to succeed in life. Wish nothing but the best.
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Old 04-30-2019, 08:30 PM   #104
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the silver lining for me is that the Flames turned a 3rd round pick into a valuable asset; makes me intrigued to closely follow players scouted and advocated by Jim Cummins. He likely had a hand in selecting Pospisil, and Pettersen and possible Koumontzis as well
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Old 05-01-2019, 07:21 AM   #105
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Just another problem with the NHL they have failed to come up with a solution to. Obviously, this NCAA problem should be fixed but the NHL will let it fester into a big story before it ever is resolved. Just wait until a big player does this to Toronto.

I hope the worst for Alan's career, and hope that the few times he visits the Dome are unenjoyable. I hope someday that this route sours around the league and players just stop taking it naturally. Tad and Alan's careers frittering away after making such a stink about where they want to play helps with that souring I hope.

I 1000% get that players taking this route have the choice, and no team is showing them loyalty - but as a fan of a team it's another chip away at the entertainment value when this is what can happen to any NCAA draft prospect you'll like. How many self-entitled, proved nothing in the NHL primadonnas are going to make an ass of themselves before GMs decide to stop playing this game? Likely too many to offset the successes, so as fans we get to feel more disdain and anxiety about draft picks choosing that route. How fun!

Fox could be a stud and the Flames drafted him. Yet he'll never play a game with the team that showed faith an interest in his development. So much fun!
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Old 05-01-2019, 07:29 AM   #106
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The risk isn't so much with the highly drafted college/university players as most are close enough to NHL ready that they will sign sooner rather than later.

The risk is with the one who aren't ready to go pro and need more seasoning at their current level. There comes a point for some that there is a bigger benefit for becoming a free agent.

It should be quite obvious to anyone that drafting an NCAA player comes with a bigger risk than drafting a CHL player.

If the NHL can have different rules for how the rights of European players are held. I don't see why they can't for NCAA players. The fact it never seems to come up as an issue with the BoG tells me that the owners don't care enough about it.
This is the problem with it. With the list TC pointed out, I'll bet teams had conversations with those players futures on their team before drafting and had a pretty good idea that these guys were interested in playing for their team.

However, the players that need/choose development are your wildcard drafts. Those are also very exciting players to draft! Good players developing in other leagues is crucial to long-term success - and a player developing in the NCAA carrying the risk of peacing out can't be ideal.

A rule in some way shape of form covering this solves the problem immediately. Going NCAA? Rules of signing that NCAA player are different, so instead x-years are committed to the team that drafted you if you want to play in the NHL. Solved.

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Old 05-01-2019, 07:39 AM   #107
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How many self-entitled, proved nothing in the NHL primadonnas are going to make an ass of themselves before GMs decide to stop playing this game?
When students graduate from college, the sought after ones have some choices of where they work, and they'll pick the best paying job in a location they like which offers the best room for advancement.

I don't see how this is different.

BTW, Johnny used the system to burn an extra year off of his ELC. No one seemed to have a care about that. If the Flames hadn't allowed that to happen, he likely won't have signed. It got him to big money as a RFA (and eventual UFA) one year earlier.
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Old 05-01-2019, 08:05 AM   #108
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When students graduate from college, the sought after ones have some choices of where they work, and they'll pick the best paying job in a location they like which offers the best room for advancement.

I don't see how this is different.

BTW, Johnny used the system to burn an extra year off of his ELC. No one seemed to have a care about that. If the Flames hadn't allowed that to happen, he likely won't have signed. It got him to big money as a RFA (and eventual UFA) one year earlier.
It's super different

A student looking for post-secondary work is incredibly different to a player choosing the NCAA route for their development.

Are companies out there making career path opportunities to students before they've cracked a book? Do you think NHL teams aren't in communication with their NCAA draftees offering counselling, motivation and feedback along their development? I'm also sure it'd be just as well-received a decision if those students decided to tell that company to take a hike as they graduated.
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Old 05-01-2019, 08:10 AM   #109
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Fox could be a stud and the Flames drafted him. Yet he'll never play a game with the team that showed faith an interest in his development. So much fun!
Not sure what this means to be honest... Showed faith and interest? Fox never asked calgary to and never led them on that he was going to sign with them. Kids get drafted whether they want to or not...

Typically, pre-draft interviews are used to gauge interest or get the measure of the player, esp in terms of how important finishing school is.

I'd be curious to see what the % of drafted NCAA players don't sign compared to the % of CHL players...

i don't think its an issue overall, if a top pick like Tkachuk stayed in college, then the wheels would turn to figure out a solution, but for now the NHLPA will always support more player freedom rather than less.
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Old 05-01-2019, 08:25 AM   #110
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Not sure what this means to be honest... Showed faith and interest? Fox never asked calgary to and never led them on that he was going to sign with them. Kids get drafted whether they want to or not...

Typically, pre-draft interviews are used to gauge interest or get the measure of the player, esp in terms of how important finishing school is.

I'd be curious to see what the % of drafted NCAA players don't sign compared to the % of CHL players...

i don't think its an issue overall, if a top pick like Tkachuk stayed in college, then the wheels would turn to figure out a solution, but for now the NHLPA will always support more player freedom rather than less.
Isn't drafting someone showing faith in them becoming an NHL player on their team, and interest in their development?

And the pre-draft interviews are used to get an idea of where that player sees themselves, but I doubt a player like Fox was brazen enough to call his shots then. They probably had the mindset that this player would develop into a Flame if they were NHL calibre.

Should the NHLPA ask to scrap the draft while we're at it then? I don't get how as fans, we're happy with this situation. And it's not chronic, but it has happened twice to us now - and if Fox lives up to his potential that's a pretty good piece to our team that took the special route to his favourite team. What a well-earned distinction!

It's not so rampant that stats are going to show the issue, but good players your scouts and GM are piecing together occasionally having the option to peace out to another team sucks. Unless you enjoy all of that, as a fan... this is annoying. Considering the NHL is entertainment, things that get in the way of that should be considered.

Do you want to be an NHL player? Here's the route. You play for the team that chose to open that door for you.
Want to play for your favourite team? Finish your commitment to the team that drafted you, and if you're good enough to attract that teams attention... go earn a contract there.

Lots of jobs don't get to pick where they work, but they full-well know where the workplace could be before they sign up for the job. I have yet to meet a stay-at-home electrician.

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Old 05-01-2019, 08:34 AM   #111
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Nhl teams love the college or euro players in later rounds because they get 4 free years of development. They don't have to waste a contract, money or time while this player develops, or doesn't.

NHL teams are aware of the rules, with higher picks. The risks. They weigh these factors when drafting a player. Teams go in with eyes wide open.

This topic brings out more ridiculous response than maybe any other similar topic. Every player can, at maximum, become a UFA 4 years after draft. Nothing needs fixing.
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Old 05-01-2019, 08:44 AM   #112
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Are companies out there making career path opportunities to students before they've cracked a book?
My company hires first year students and bring them in to work for the summer in an attempt to get a leg up on the competition. These people often come back to work for us post-graduation, but not always. We hold no grudge if they feel there is a better fit for them eslewhere.

And of course, these students are free, at ant time, to go where they want. They don't get drafted into a system where someone holds their rights for 4 years. Just because the NHL players are initially put into a system which, compared to everyone else, is oppressive to start with, I don't see how we can begrudge them the small amount of flexibility some have to attempt to alter than course.

Fox chose to wait 4 years so he could chose his employer. It's his right, and I can't see why he should have been forced to take a less desirable opportunity elsewhere.
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Old 05-01-2019, 09:49 AM   #113
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No, that is not possible.

Any player who has played in the CHL is ineligible to play in the NCAA. That's why players like Cale Makar, who intend to go to the NCAA, play in the AJHL or equivalent until they're college-ready.

Under the NCAA rules, the CHL is considered a pro league because the players receive living expenses while playing. They have even ruled that players who have only attended a CHL training camp are ineligible.


A player who is no longer eligible to play in the CHL who doesn't want to sign with the team that drafted him could go play in Europe or play Canadian University hockey in the interim. As far as I know, no CHL player has ever chosen to go down that road, but I suppose it could happen someday. It's likely the team who holds his rights would trade him before it came to that.
Just to clarify, there are specific provisions that allow players to attend professional team tryouts / camps / combines without losing NCAA amateur status. You will hear about the ‘48 hour rule’ which is an oversimplification but generally players can ensure they retain NCAA eligibility by paying all of their own expenses if they stay at a tryout longer than 48 hours and do not participate in any exhibition games (and don’t keep free hats or jerseys etc).

The rules are complicated and the sad part is when players find out the hard way they became a pro without realizing it.

As far as players choosing to make decisions within the provisions of a massively complicated collective bargaining agreement it seems very strange to me why that would anger so many people. The group of owners and players whose lives and livelihoods are actually affected by this are fine with these being the options and outcomes. They have literally bargained over it.

You draft the playing rights of a player not the human being. The player has no say whatsoever in that decision. He does have the right to decline to sign a contract with you.
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Old 05-01-2019, 09:56 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by The Cobra View Post
My company hires first year students and bring them in to work for the summer in an attempt to get a leg up on the competition. These people often come back to work for us post-graduation, but not always. We hold no grudge if they feel there is a better fit for them eslewhere.

And of course, these students are free, at ant time, to go where they want. They don't get drafted into a system where someone holds their rights for 4 years. Just because the NHL players are initially put into a system which, compared to everyone else, is oppressive to start with, I don't see how we can begrudge them the small amount of flexibility some have to attempt to alter than course.

Fox chose to wait 4 years so he could chose his employer. It's his right, and I can't see why he should have been forced to take a less desirable opportunity elsewhere.
Yeah there's no reason to be annoyed by this. I wouldn't want to sign somewhere unless I was confident I was getting market value and had an above average chance to succeed. This could be the only NHL deal Fox signs if things don't go well, so it's smart that he's seeking out his best possible situation. It is part of the rules and so long as your GM isn't being blinded, they can pivot accordingly.

Treliving did a great job of maximizing the asset before things got out of control. It's more than can be said of some of his predecessors or cohorts around the NHL.
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Old 05-01-2019, 10:37 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by The Cobra View Post
My company hires first year students and bring them in to work for the summer in an attempt to get a leg up on the competition. These people often come back to work for us post-graduation, but not always. We hold no grudge if they feel there is a better fit for them eslewhere.

And of course, these students are free, at ant time, to go where they want. They don't get drafted into a system where someone holds their rights for 4 years. Just because the NHL players are initially put into a system which, compared to everyone else, is oppressive to start with, I don't see how we can begrudge them the small amount of flexibility some have to attempt to alter than course.

Fox chose to wait 4 years so he could chose his employer. It's his right, and I can't see why he should have been forced to take a less desirable opportunity elsewhere.
In hindsight, it makes way too much sense not to have existed... but I had no idea this was a thing. I'm surprised that's out there, and it's pretty damn cool TBQH

So I guess, for me, it really comes down to viewing the NHL as a fan - and where you stand on what's right and what's wrong as an NHL employee (or hopeful).

If I really think of it, I guess I view the draft more as "if you would like a job in the NHL, your post is here in Calgary. Work hard!" rather than the NHL being a place where you pick your spot before you've entered the door. As you've pointed out, relating how I view NHL players to real-world jobs doesn't work so well... but I guess I view it as picking your spot in the company before you're hired... or "I'll be a manager, please" kind of thing. Does that work?

Am I incorrect to think that, take it or leave it, your job is with (and, to avoid all this tax stuff... they should all be paid by) the NHL and for all intents and purposes you're an "entertainer" (I also think the NHL owes a lot to retired players or prospects, but that's a whole different topic... I think). It would be like training your whole life for Cirque, but turning down shows in certain cities. You're totally right to do so... but there goes your Cirque career. It's not for everyone, but as a player you enter the league with the team that drafts you and you're more than welcome to try and draw the attention of your favourite childhood team to accomplish your career dreams. I don't know if this works... but you run the circuit with Cirque for 4 years hoping to be noticed by the Vegas show? ...let's pretend that makes sense

Why do I care? As a fan, this is part of the entertainment (albeit, as a NYR fan the entertainment is in players telling teams to stuff it). But as fans building a cast of characters you like is really important. I don't think there needs to be legal intervention, but as the NHL I wonder why they don't want to fix it. It's only happened twice to us in this era, so it's not a chronic issue per team - but most fan bases are experiencing it. It's also something that can be fixed easily, and should be in my opinion. We like talking about prospects, we're excited when our team selects that prospect and we have fun watching that player develop into a difference maker on your favourite team. It sucks when they leave and your team is left hoping to get something back for their selection.

I get it happens, I totally agree with why and how. I just wish it didn't

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Old 05-01-2019, 10:44 AM   #116
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I think as long as the player is straight forward about intentions, which most certainly change over time though, it's all good
Like Panarin vs Tavares. Panarin states one month before trade deadline he is exploring free agency. All the power to him. This in contrast to Tavares, who gives every indication he will likely re-sign, and then pulls on his Leafs jammies at the first opportunity. I do not blame Isles fans for their treatment of him.
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Old 05-01-2019, 10:46 AM   #117
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Just another problem with the NHL they have failed to come up with a solution to. Obviously, this NCAA problem should be fixed but the NHL will let it fester into a big story before it ever is resolved. Just wait until a big player does this to Toronto.

I hope the worst for Alan's career, and hope that the few times he visits the Dome are unenjoyable. I hope someday that this route sours around the league and players just stop taking it naturally. Tad and Alan's careers frittering away after making such a stink about where they want to play helps with that souring I hope.

I 1000% get that players taking this route have the choice, and no team is showing them loyalty - but as a fan of a team it's another chip away at the entertainment value when this is what can happen to any NCAA draft prospect you'll like. How many self-entitled, proved nothing in the NHL primadonnas are going to make an ass of themselves before GMs decide to stop playing this game? Likely too many to offset the successes, so as fans we get to feel more disdain and anxiety about draft picks choosing that route. How fun!

Fox could be a stud and the Flames drafted him. Yet he'll never play a game with the team that showed faith an interest in his development. So much fun!
strange to have so much anger towards someone who just wants to take what they feel is the best career opportunity for themselves.
he didn't break any rules, nor from what I understand, did he mislead anyone.
Flames used his rights to help acquire two good players. seems like everyone made out fine in this situation.

huntingwhale's ending of his post is a good take.
"The other was upfront, honest and simply took advantage of an in-place rule, which allowed himself to be traded for a great return. "


you also stated
"Do you want to be an NHL player? Here's the route. You play for the team that chose to open that door for you.
Want to play for your favourite team? Finish your commitment to the team that drafted you, and if you're good enough to attract that teams attention... go earn a contract there."

sounds like you'd almost prefer to go back to the old days when players were basically indentured servants to a team for their whole career.

why should a player be stuck with a team from when he was drafted until he is an UFA? a player shouldn't be forced to play for the team that drafted them. the rules as they are now work perfectly fine as very few players get redrafted or do the full 4 years of school to be a free agent.

outside of CP, how many flames fans really follow prospects after the draft, other than in passing? I don't think the majority of fans are that invested in prospects until they're in training camp or playing with the big club.

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Old 05-01-2019, 10:55 AM   #118
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Yeah I'm not as interested in liking or not liking Adam Fox, or the rules.

Way more interested in how this was handled internally.

Could they have gotten more if they waited another year? Looks like it. But then they may not have gotten that deal done with Carolina, and I guess there's always the risk of having a player get hurt or have an off year hurting his value.

Closes the loop on the deal for the most part.

It was always asset management in trading Hamilton at a high (maybe not peak), Ferland at a high (wouldn't have resigned him) and clearly Fox as a prospect asset knowing he wouldn't sign.
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Old 05-01-2019, 11:09 AM   #119
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I think UFAs are more than welcome to explore other offers, and RFAs are more than welcome to sign offer sheets. If you've proven yourself in the NHL enough to be worth it, then good on you. I, as a Flames fan, will hate them forever though. That's my job.

But before you have played a day in the league, I don't think the NHL should be permitting the kids to pick their place. It was garbage when Lindros did it, it was silly when Tom thought he was worth it, and it'll be hilarious when 1st overall refuses to go to the Oilers. I think it should be "to enter the NHL, here's you're route."

Once you're in the NHL you can further your career however you see fit. Kulak is a wonderful example of how furthering your career can happen with another team. But Fox was not going to have an impossible path to the NHL through the Flames. If he's as good as he's projected to be, he would have been a valuable part to our blueline (at the time, so was Tom). And as much as fans may not have known about Fox as a prospect, it was a player their team was trying to add to the NHL roster which they would have quite liked.

This wasn't a move to ensure he had a career in the NHL, it was personal preference. As a paying fan of the NHL, I think my personal preference (to watch the player we drafted play on the team) would be important. If you're so fickle about where you play that you don't even want to show up for the team that drafted you (Lindros), I don't think the NHL is for you. We bend over for Lindros as the NHL was better with him - but it still sucked, and you wished him and his parents weren't so selfish. I was taught by the same school teachers as Lindros... and I should really like him. He was a good player, but he was a dink and I never liked him. Alan is more than welcome to do what he did, but I think he's a dink (I also don't jumble his name out of anger, it's playful disrespect ). He's never proven to be worth this distinction and I hope he fizzles out like Tom to balance karma in the world and not reward primadonnas.

I think we all know Johnny is going to leave someday, and if he accomplishes something with us or at least gives us an opportunity like Panarin - so be it. That's how teams are build.

But before you've even played a game? I just don't get why that's a good thing?

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Old 05-01-2019, 11:16 AM   #120
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Is it mandatory for teams to offer there draft picks contracts?
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