Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by stone hands

former sth, dont care about anything you just said

anecdotes are great

With all due respect, it is not 'former' STHs that they are concerned about. Also, obviously not everyone is going to have the same opinions about all of these things - I thought it was obvious that I was generalizing.

[stone hands]

i was a sth until this year, and it was extremely obvious you were generalizing and speaking for thousands of individuals you dont know

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by stone hands

i was a sth until this year, and it was extremely obvious you were generalizing and speaking for thousands of individuals you dont know

Well, I was speaking for every single person I have ever discussed this with.

And counting you, I know one STH that doesn't care.

I know you are against arena funding. Passionately. But most people that pay thousands of dollars per year for tickets do care a great deal about these things. And they have every right to.

[stone hands]

Agree to disagree i guess. I wouldn't try to pretend i know what thousands of people care or care not for myself

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

It’s absolutley fine for watching hockey. In fact, it has the best sightines of any NHL rink I’ve been to. I really enjoy watching games there.

What’s not fine is the amount of musical acts skipping Calgary forcing me to go to Edmonton and spend my money in that city if I want to go. Most of the artists that’s skip town suck, but there’s probably 1-2/year I go to (and maybe 1-2/year I would go to if it was in Calgary but wouldn’t drive three hours for). Personally the amount I spend going to Edmonton would cancel out with any food/beverage price increase. I rarely drink at games and concerts so the beer price isn’t really an issue for me.

Wanting a new arena for concerts is a legit reason for a new building for sure.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I agree - the upper bowl of that arena sucks. And that is unfortunate. But it doesn't change the discussion.

Isn't that a part of the discussion though?

For rare Saddledome visitors like myself, the Dome is a great place to watch hockey. What he's pointing out is that a shiny new arena doesn't fix what people are complaining about - and in his case, it made it worse

The ticket prices will go up, the concessions and washrooms will still be full and we won't be playing in a cool saddle anymore!

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Split98

Isn't that a part of the discussion though?

For rare Saddledome visitors like myself, the Dome is a great place to watch hockey. What he's pointing out is that a shiny new arena doesn't fix what people are complaining about - and in his case, it made it worse

The ticket prices will go up, the concessions and washrooms will still be full and we won't be playing in a cool saddle anymore!

but it only made it worse for the middle class.
the rich people have an awesome arena.

maybe Calgary can make it good for all classes of fans.

[bizaro86]

From my perspective as a STH in the greens, the following things are likely to be true:

-my view of the game will be equal or worse
-my ticket prices will be way higher
-my property taxes will be slightly higher
-there will still be a wait to use the bathroom at intermission
-there will still be a Ram truck in my way in the concourse.
-the construction materials will be shinier

Doesn't seem like a net benefit to me...

[420since1974]

Calgary Flames Team Value
as per Forbes - Dec. 2018.

https://www.forbes.com/teams/calgary-flames/

[Dube]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

From my perspective as a STH in the greens, the following things are likely to be true:

-my view of the game will be equal or worse
-my ticket prices will be way higher
-my property taxes will be slightly higher
-there will still be a wait to use the bathroom at intermission
-there will still be a Ram truck in my way in the concourse.
-the construction materials will be shinier

Doesn't seem like a net benefit to me...

Show after show will continue to skip Calgary.

[Erick Estrada]

I think it's important to remember that Darryl Katz was behind Rogers Place so going by how he runs his hockey team it's really no surprise the arena is deficient which is a major failure considering it's the 2nd newest in the league the highest I have seen it ranked in any arena rankings is fifth but most have it lower and by all accounts Little Caesars arena blows it away. Also lets not forget that Kevin Lowe years ago let the cat out of the bag that the organization really only cares about Tier 1 fans so it's no surprise the upper seating was an afterthought. Just because Katz screwed up that doesn't mean that the Flames new arena won't be an immense improvement over the Saddledome and being 2nd in the arena race also provided the Flames the ability to ensure they don't make the same mistakes.

[marsplasticeraser]

We’re you not around for the Calgary Next presentation?

That was years of work, and if anybody but ken king had done that they would have been fired. It was embarrassing it was so bad. Just consider:

They never talked to the city. The one they want to invest billions of dollars.

They never even thought whether the site was viable or important for the city to develop.

They presented a project that many university students could have done better.

I honestly believe if the flames are running this on their own we will be lucky to get Rogers place.

I think we look at Edmonton and think “we’re not as bad as they are” and are happy, and think we are doing ok. But the truth is the flames have been one of the bottom 5 or 8 run organizations in the NHL over the past 25 years. We should expect a lot more from flames leadership.

If ken king wants to do something new, Task him with getting mobile ordering for concessions. Maybe allow him freedom to pursue his passion project: more trucks in the concourse. Maybe he can find a way to stack them or hang them.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think it's important to remember that Darryl Katz was behind Rogers Place so going by how he runs his hockey team it's really no surprise the arena is deficient which is a major failure considering it's the 2nd newest in the league the highest I have seen it ranked in any arena rankings is fifth but most have it lower and by all accounts Little Caesars arena blows it away. Also lets not forget that Kevin Lowe years ago let the cat out of the bag that the organization really only cares about Tier 1 fans so it's no surprise the upper seating was an afterthought. Just because Katz screwed up that doesn't mean that the Flames new arena won't be an immense improvement over the Saddledome and being 2nd in the arena race also provided the Flames the ability to ensure they don't make the same mistakes.

[GreenLantern2814]

So, we getting a new building or what?

[Sutter_in_law]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I can see someone feeling this way if they visited for the first time, or once a year or whatever. Because in that case, the only thing that really matters is sightlines - and the sightlines are good.

But if you're a STH, paying for 45 games a year, there is a lot more to it than that.

Washrooms matter. Food concession options matter. Space in the concourse matters. Size of the seats matters, as does legroom.

I have been to 15-20 rinks around the league, and the Dome is the worst in each of those categories. By a LOT in some cases.

I know that some people don't care about those things - younger people especially, budget-minded, and occasional patrons - but the people paying the bills definitely do care, to a much greater extent.

Watching hockey matters more than anything else IMO. I’d rather not pay 1/3 more for basically the same seats in a new structure

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I agree - the upper bowl of that arena sucks. And that is unfortunate. But it doesn't change the discussion.

How does it not? It’s a legitimate concern

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

With all due respect, it is not 'former' STHs that they are concerned about. Also, obviously not everyone is going to have the same opinions about all of these things - I thought it was obvious that I was generalizing.

With all due respect you are coming across as an arrogant “tier one fan” - and that your opinion as a STH is more valid than anyone else’s.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, I was speaking for every single person I have ever discussed this with.

And counting you, I know one STH that doesn't care.

I know you are against arena funding. Passionately. But most people that pay thousands of dollars per year for tickets do care a great deal about these things. And they have every right to.

Me and my family have had season tickets for years. Yes it’s true that most people seem to be for a new arena but if you’ve only talked to one that is against it then you probably aren’t talking to many people - there are obviously a lot of people that have very legitimate concerns about the overall benefit vs price. It’s probably been about 70-30 for vs. against with people I have spoken to.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

From my perspective as a STH in the greens, the following things are likely to be true:

-my view of the game will be equal or worse
-my ticket prices will be way higher
-my property taxes will be slightly higher
-there will still be a wait to use the bathroom at intermission
-there will still be a Ram truck in my way in the concourse.
-the construction materials will be shinier

Doesn't seem like a net benefit to me...

Team cant stay in the dome forever though...eventually you will have a great view of nothing

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

So, we getting a new building or what?

It sounds like it's coming.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I can see someone feeling this way if they visited for the first time, or once a year or whatever. Because in that case, the only thing that really matters is sightlines - and the sightlines are good.

But if you're a STH, paying for 45 games a year, there is a lot more to it than that.

Washrooms matter. Food concession options matter. Space in the concourse matters. Size of the seats matters, as does legroom.

I have been to 15-20 rinks around the league, and the Dome is the worst in each of those categories. By a LOT in some cases.

I know that some people don't care about those things - younger people especially, budget-minded, and occasional patrons - but the people paying the bills definitely do care, to a much greater extent.

Wait a minute...you start by saying that someone who visits an arena once or twice isn't entitled to much of an opinion on the quality of a building...Then you say that you've been to 15-20 other rinks (presumably once or twice at most), and proceed to state how much better they all are than the Dome?

Originally Posted by _Q_

I've been to 4 NHL rinks (Toronto, Washington, Ottawa and Calgary) and one NBA arena (New Orleans). Not sure what kind of mind blowing, orgasmic, arena experience y'all are having where bathroom lines are 10 seconds long during intermission. Most arenas are almost identical from a fan perspective in my mind.

With that said, I'm all for a new arena in Calgary. I just don't expect to have my brains blasted every time I watch a Flames game.

It's almost like there are ~18000 people in the same place at the same time in all of these places?

[Reggie Dunlop]

Would still like to see something done with the West End site, cleaning up the Creosote contamination. That part of CalgaryNEXt was a good idea.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It sounds like it's coming.

Good

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Split98

^ one thing that I really disliked about Edmonton (especially coming from the Dome) was how far back all the seating was. Very football like and not the knees to your neighbours head seating you're used to in a rink. We had good seats in the lower bowl, but I felt like I was pretty far back from the game, and seeing the other end of the rink was tough.

Whatever they do in Calgary, I'd hope that the views at a hockey game is the primary consideration.

That was purposeful so your seat is just beyond throwing a jersey on the ice distance.