Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Major Major

Sorry, it's been normalized? You can't possibly make that claim at this point. I know it's a buzz term that gets thrown around a lot these days, but if something happens in response to exceptional circumstances, it would need to happen at least one more time under less exceptional circumstances to be considered normalized.

The F Trudeau crowd are predictably butthurt that through investigation most people agree that this was the right call. It solved an issue that was untenable. The normal solution was not able to.

So I’ve asked this repeatedly and no one has answered so maybe you have one.

what specific powers we required that were not available to the government to end the protest? Why was Ambassador able to be cleared without these powers? On what basis do you believe the bolded? What piece of evidence from the commission leads you to believe this?

I think the closest anyone has come was Pepsi, the logic is that protest didn’t end before the EA but ended shortly after the EA therefore the EA was needed. I’d argue instead no one bothered to try to clear any protests until Ambassador on the 11th-13th. When no one bothered to try why do you accept that as being unable to?

I don’t even think this protest was that exceptional. Ambassador Bridge, Costal gas link, fairy creek, the railway protests etc all are protests invoking entrenched potentially armed groups who were restricting access to national critical infrastructure.


Anyway I’ve said my piece and will drop out until we get new testimony. I think the results of the commission will be as follows.

The commission recognizes the government didn’t meet section 2 of the act but genuinely believed the emergency met the intent of the act so the recommendation will be to clean up the definitions and secondly that the government failed to demonstrate that the powers they put in place (especially the financial powers) were an overreach and the requirements of the act weren’t met in that regard.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Just going to interrupt this CBC/ Freedom convoy discussion to talk about a story I experienced 48hrs ago.

Given the 6 month delay to try and get our kids Tylenol, my wife and and I were at the Children’s Hospital. They prescribed my son Amoxicillin (common antibiotic) but told us they we completely out. At a kids hospital.

So we drove around the Pharmacies around town and yep all out too. Luckily we found pill form at one.

Defend the social ideology, I get it and agree, but this government is honestly risking our children with the total ineptitude at managing critical supply chain.

A major city in a first world country, out of antibiotics, totally blew my mind.

Couple of comments…

Healthcare is a provincial responsibility, so a large amount of blame falls at the feet of the UPC (and Doug Ford in Ontario)

That said, I definitely think we should have a national procurement strategy and regulation to ensure that minimum levels of service are being delivered - not just for medication but for services. Unfortunately I don’t think the provinces (particularly Ford, Smith, Moe, etc) would allow that to be set up. Especially in the procurement area for hospitals, the feds should take charge like they did for the COVID vaccines, and let the provinces deliver the goods. Maybe they are, I don’t know…

Of course, the private enterprise producing these items adds another billion layers of complexity, especially in the current “just in time” and “no waste” environment. Over production is not acceptable but then shortages are a real risk.

It all needs to work together to work… or in this case not work

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by GGG

what specific powers we required that were not available to the government to end the protest? Why was Ambassador able to be cleared without these powers? On what basis do you believe the bolded? What piece of evidence from the commission leads you to believe this?
.

The general sense that I have is that no police or government wanted to be the bad guy and stand up to the convoy. The Ottawa police certainly didn’t. The OPP didn’t clear anything. The Ottawa mayor and city council didn’t push. Doug Ford and the Ontario province was just as MIA as he is for these hearings. Tow truck companies wouldn’t act. Nothing was happening.

It wasn’t until the Federation Government took matters into their own hands, invoked the EA, and “overstepped” into someone else’s jurisdiction that something occurred.

The fact that nobody else wanted the PR hit in order to act meant that nothing would have happened. Replacing Chiefs of Police or Mayors or other politicians would have taken weeks or months to be effective. The EA was a “I don’t want to but I am forced to act” get out of jail PR card to get things done.

Should it have been needed? Of course not. The other levels of police and government *should* have stepped in. The fact that they didn’t and were showing no willingness to even try meant that other “extreme” actions were needed. And they were effective.

Maybe we need to develop other methods to compel action?

[Major Major]

Theoretically yes, the existing laws and measures in place were enough and that's why you saw the ambassador bridge, couts, and other examples, but threats to society and security are only worth examining in practical terms. Practically, the ops and opp could not form and execute a plan in a timely manner to meet the scale of this challenge. There is zero evidence that this was changing. There is no reason to think that we would not still be waiting on a solution with Ottawa lying in ruin, but that would be ok to fulfill the theory of the emergencies act?

It's like saying "it says here the provision for this kind of thing is to use our space force."

"But sir, all we have is this garbage barge that tows Starbucks cups into the sun."

"It will have to do"

Based on the testimony which shone a light on Slowly's state of kind, the OPS failure to even understand what was happening, the mistrust and jurisdictional failures between them and the OPP, the testimony that tow trucks could not being compelled to help, the lack of any plan to act, based on the total paralysis and unprecedented bumbling, no one could confidently say that this was coming to an end eventually without the use of the EA.

[Fuzz]

It also didn't help that the OPS allowed their officers to sabotage the efforts. They should have been immediately fired and pensions revoked.

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2125712963818

[Locke]

Originally Posted by calculoso

The general sense that I have is that no police or government wanted to be the bad guy and stand up to the convoy. The Ottawa police certainly didn’t. The OPP didn’t clear anything. The Ottawa mayor and city council didn’t push. Doug Ford and the Ontario province was just as MIA as he is for these hearings. Tow truck companies wouldn’t act. Nothing was happening.

It wasn’t until the Federation Government took matters into their own hands, invoked the EA, and “overstepped” into someone else’s jurisdiction that something occurred.

The fact that nobody else wanted the PR hit in order to act meant that nothing would have happened. Replacing Chiefs of Police or Mayors or other politicians would have taken weeks or months to be effective. The EA was a “I don’t want to but I am forced to act” get out of jail PR card to get things done.

Should it have been needed? Of course not. The other levels of police and government *should* have stepped in. The fact that they didn’t and were showing no willingness to even try meant that other “extreme” actions were needed. And they were effective.

Maybe we need to develop other methods to compel action?

This is the thing, it only became an 'Emergency' because they allowed it to.

A fundamental failure of all processes across the board.

And yeah, every single person down to the last Cop who refused to act initially essentially didnt do their jobs and should be fired with cause.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Locke

This is the thing, it only became an 'Emergency' because they allowed it to.

A fundamental failure of all processes across the board.

And yeah, every single person down to the last Cop who refused to act initially essentially didnt do their jobs and should be fired with cause.

The old "#### Rolls Downhill".

The buck starts at the top with the PM, then the Premier, the Mayor, the various policing heads, down the cops on the beat.

The Freedom Convoy was such a politically inspired event, that I think a lot of the cops probably sided with the protesters.

I believe the whole event shows a sad lack of leadership from the top down. And that, coupled with our divisive, political game playing PM, were largely responsible for the enormity of the protest and the length of time it was allowed to proceed.

As I see it, the use of the EMA was used at the last minute to gain points politically, as it somewhat makes up for the sad lack of action by our PM thoughout the whole event.

just my biased opinion

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

The old "#### Rolls Downhill".

The buck starts at the top with the PM, then the Premier, the Mayor, the various policing heads, down the cops on the beat.

The Freedom Convoy was such a politically inspired event, that I think a lot of the cops probably sided with the protesters.

I believe the whole event shows a sad lack of leadership from the top down. And that, coupled with our divisive, political game playing PM, were largely responsible for the enormity of the protest and the length of time it was allowed to proceed.

As I see it, the use of the EMA was used at the last minute to gain points politically, as it somewhat makes up for the sad lack of action by our PM thoughout the whole event.

just my biased opinion

Should the PM have fired Sloley himself, and rallied the troops to retake Ottawa? What action did you expect the PM to take? Use the EMA sooner?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

The old "#### Rolls Downhill".

The buck starts at the top with the PM, then the Premier, the Mayor, the various policing heads, down the cops on the beat.

The Freedom Convoy was such a politically inspired event, that I think a lot of the cops probably sided with the protesters.

I believe the whole event shows a sad lack of leadership from the top down. And that, coupled with our divisive, political game playing PM, were largely responsible for the enormity of the protest and the length of time it was allowed to proceed.

As I see it, the use of the EMA was used at the last minute to gain points politically, as it somewhat makes up for the sad lack of action by our PM thoughout the whole event.

just my biased opinion

I see it the opposite way, this is something where the #### pumped up to Parliament Hill.

As much as I loathe Trudeau, by the time it got to him it was an Emergency.

If the Cops had just let the guys Protest and then calmly cleared them out after a few hours then there is no problem.

It started with the Cops on the street, went up to the Police Chief, then the Mayor, then the Premier and on and on. It should never have gone that far.

Like I said, a successive failure of the systems. The real "Emergency" was that there are ton of people in positions of authority with Zero intestinal fortitude.

Until they were allowed to entrench themselves this is a run-of-the-mill protest and you move them along.

[PepsiFree]

The idea that people who actively despise Trudeau also want him to be the one personally dealing with every protest and managing all drug supply as the first person responsible is insane.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The idea that people who actively despise Trudeau also want him to be the one personally dealing with every protest and managing all drug supply as the first person responsible is insane.

I dunno...he takes a lot of Vacations so he's clearly got some available time.

That said, the man is also an idiot so he probably shouldnt be placed in positions of actual responsibility.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Locke

I dunno...he takes a lot of Vacations so he's clearly got some available time.

That said, the man is also an idiot so he probably shouldnt be placed in positions of actual responsibility.

It’s the idiot thing on one hand, but it’s also a question of how much autonomy you want provinces to have. It seems like the people making arguments that sound a lot like a desire to transfer all responsibility and control for policing and healthcare to the federal government also hate the federal government and the idea of them having too much control.

Like do people think having the federal government completely socialize every aspect of healthcare including drug procurement and distribution (while being the sole operators) is going to be… cheaper?

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

The old "#### Rolls Downhill".



The buck starts at the top with the PM, then the Premier, the Mayor, the various policing heads, down the cops on the beat.



The Freedom Convoy was such a politically inspired event, that I think a lot of the cops probably sided with the protesters.



I believe the whole event shows a sad lack of leadership from the top down. And that, coupled with our divisive, political game playing PM, were largely responsible for the enormity of the protest and the length of time it was allowed to proceed.



As I see it, the use of the EMA was used at the last minute to gain points politically, as it somewhat makes up for the sad lack of action by our PM thoughout the whole event.



just my biased opinion

Show me on this Doll where Trudeau Sr touched you.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Locke

I see it the opposite way, this is something where the #### pumped up to Parliament Hill.

As much as I loathe Trudeau, by the time it got to him it was an Emergency.

If the Cops had just let the guys Protest and then calmly cleared them out after a few hours then there is no problem.

It started with the Cops on the street, went up to the Police Chief, then the Mayor, then the Premier and on and on. It should never have gone that far.

Like I said, a successive failure of the systems. The real "Emergency" was that there are ton of people in positions of authority with Zero intestinal fortitude.

Until they were allowed to entrench themselves this is a run-of-the-mill protest and you move them along.

I think you’re right, it’s a failure of policing and up the line. But the use of the EMA is still concerning to me. The reality is, there were mechanisms to deal with this all the way along, and they simply didn’t.

But the other thing I wonder is about how the EMA was implemented and what powers they took. For example, did they have to freeze bank accounts?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Slava

I think you’re right, it’s a failure of policing and up the line. But the use of the EMA is still concerning to me. The reality is, there were mechanisms to deal with this all the way along, and they simply didn’t.

But the other thing I wonder is about how the EMA was implemented and what powers they took. For example, did they have to freeze bank accounts?

I'm not sold on the use of the EMA either, but by the same token I'm not sold that there was an underlying nefarious purpose for its implementation either.

I dont see this as a 'Trudeau burning down the Reichstag for Emergency Powers' situation.

Did they have to freeze the bank accounts? I dont know, I'm on the fence about that. On the one hand I dont like the idea of the Government having their hands on Citizen's money but on the other hand I acknowledge that if you're a bunch of idiots without any testicular fortitude and you want to passively control a situation, turning off their access to money until you achieve the desired effect (get them to leave) seems like a strategy that will work and is 'on brand.'

I still maintain though that this was a disaster and emergency of their own making, not out of design, but out of sheer cowardice and incompetence.

[Locke]

Its like the Office Space situation with Milton where he'd been fired but he kept collecting paycheques so instead of actually dealing with the situation they just turned the money off and hoped the problem would fix itself.

This is literally what the Government did. They 'Office Spaced' them.

Not like Superman 3.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by GGG

So I’ve asked this repeatedly and no one has answered so maybe you have one.

what specific powers we required that were not available to the government to end the protest? Why was Ambassador able to be cleared without these powers? On what basis do you believe the bolded? What piece of evidence from the commission leads you to believe this?

Essentially, the Federal government has no jurisdiction over the streets of Ottawa or the roads leading to the borders that were blocked. When the entities that did have jurisdiction (municipalities and provinces) and the existing enforcement (local police and OPP) abrogated their responsibility to enforce order, what was there really left to do?

Yes, the Ambassador bridge was cleared before the Federal Emergencies Act was invoked, but it only happened because the province declared a State of Emergency on Feb 11th, which included similar restrictions on civil rights (ability to restrict peoples' movements) and draconian penalties for illegally protesting (up to $100K fine and 1 year in prison). Those powers were used to clear the bridge, but it doesn't seem like they were being used in Ottawa, and obviously would have no effect on the border blockade in Alberta or the various disruptions happening elsewhere (like in BC).

It's funny, provinces and territories declare States of Emergency all the time (it has happened about 25 times in the last decade) and no one bats an eye. But when the Federal government does the same, all of the sudden it's a slippery slope towards totalitarianism. I mean, I could see it if there were examples of the powers being abused. But temporarily shifting jurisdiction from the lower levels of government to the Federal Government in order to clear an illegal occupation? That basically doesn't even register for me.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Essentially, the Federal government has no jurisdiction over the streets of Ottawa or the roads leading to the borders that were blocked. When the entities that did have jurisdiction (municipalities and provinces) and the existing enforcement (local police and OPP) abrogated their responsibility to enforce order, what was there really left to do?

Yes, the Ambassador bridge was cleared before the Federal Emergencies Act was invoked, but it only happened because the province declared a State of Emergency on Feb 11th, which included similar restrictions on civil rights (ability to restrict peoples' movements) and draconian penalties for illegally protesting (up to $100K fine and 1 year in prison). Those powers were used to clear the bridge, but it doesn't seem like they were being used in Ottawa, and obviously would have no effect on the border blockade in Alberta or the various disruptions happening elsewhere (like in BC).

It's funny, provinces and territories declare States of Emergency all the time (it has happened about 25 times in the last decade) and no one bats an eye. But when the Federal government does the same, all of the sudden it's a slippery slope towards totalitarianism. I mean, I could see it if there were examples of the powers being abused. But temporarily shifting jurisdiction from the lower levels of government to the Federal Government in order to clear an illegal occupation? That basically doesn't even register for me.

How about arbitrarily freezing peoples bank accounts? Does that register with you?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Yoho

How about arbitrarily freezing peoples bank accounts? Does that register with you?

Time to consult your dictionary again.

We already saw what happened when they didn't freeze accounts, money got funneled off into cryptocurrencies from some accounts before they could be frozen. That money was used to allow the illegal occupation to access fuel and food, continuing the suffering foisted upon Ottawa. Had the full ~$10 million been permitted to flow unfettered who knows how long it would have dragged on, or have repeat events show up later.

It's pretty simple to not have your accounts frozen, don't contribute money to illegal actions. Nothing about it was arbitrary.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Time to consult your dictionary again.

We already saw what happened when they didn't freeze accounts, money got funneled off into cryptocurrencies from some accounts before they could be frozen. That money was used to allow the illegal occupation to access fuel and food, continuing the suffering foisted upon Ottawa. Had the full ~$10 million been permitted to flow unfettered who knows how long it would have dragged on, or have repeat events show up later.

It's pretty simple to not have your accounts frozen, don't contribute money to illegal actions. Nothing about it was arbitrary.

The gofundme was canceled before the the EA and I believe the other one was subject to an injunction from the Ottawa lawsuit. So I don’t think you can credit the EA with stopping the 10 million.

On Feb. 10, the Ontario government successfully petitioned a court to freeze access to millions of dollars donated through the online fundraising platform and prohibit anyone from distributing donations.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8671685/g...ation-refunds/