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Old 10-28-2022, 02:40 AM   #1761
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Yeah this is getting insane. I want us to have the newest and best but we're paying way way way over top dollar just to get average.
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Old 10-28-2022, 04:50 AM   #1762
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I have torn feelings on MAID because this is where I was worried it would lead.

Oh, your 66 and your hip is bugging you? Have you considered death?

Oh, you a 44 year old vet with PTSD and you want help? Have you considered asking the state to kill you instead?

Oh, you're going through a divorce and just need some support and therapy? Sounds expensive, we can off you much cheaper.
“Why don’t you just kill yourself” was a weirdly popular phrase a few decades ago. ####ty people aren’t going away. I don’t see this as a reasonable argument against MAID.
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Old 10-28-2022, 08:18 AM   #1763
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To put this stupidity into perspective. The 15 basically frigate class ships will cost 85 billion to build.

The USS Gerald Ford had a construction price tag of 12.8 billion.

The US Navy's new Constellation Class Frigate costs $1.2 billion to build.

The Seawolf class submarine would cost 5 billion per copy today.

There is something seriously off kilter with this whole program.
This is beyond infuriating. This county has turned a once proud armed forces into a complete laughing stock. I really wish we could send trendy socks into battle with the rusted out garbage we have to deploy.
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Old 10-28-2022, 08:29 AM   #1764
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This is beyond infuriating. This county has turned a once proud armed forces into a complete laughing stock. I really wish we could send trendy socks into battle with the rusted out garbage we have to deploy.
I hate to break it to you but this is how it has always been, poorly/under equipped.

It's a Canadian tradition
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Old 10-28-2022, 08:59 AM   #1765
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Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch View Post
To put this stupidity into perspective. The 15 basically frigate class ships will cost 85 billion to build.

The USS Gerald Ford had a construction price tag of 12.8 billion.

The US Navy's new Constellation Class Frigate costs $1.2 billion to build.

The Seawolf class submarine would cost 5 billion per copy today.

There is something seriously off kilter with this whole program.
So...what are the odds of the CSC program being cut to 8 hulls...or cancelled altogether?

I see the benefits of "Made in Canada" solutions for major capital projects like this, but this kind of cost overrun in the name of it is ridiculous. We would be far better off from a capability perspective to just say "Hey Bath Iron Works, just make us 15 extra Constellation Frigates".

There was a good article in the National Post about this - basically saying we'd be better off to do the above for $18B, and provide $67B in other supports to the affected areas.

Last edited by I-Hate-Hulse; 10-28-2022 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 10-28-2022, 09:01 AM   #1766
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Especially when it's such a corrupt industry, that just makes the high costs less bearable
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Old 10-28-2022, 09:44 AM   #1767
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So which companies do I buy stock in to cash in on this? May as well get some value for my tax dollars.
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Old 10-28-2022, 10:13 AM   #1768
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So which companies do I buy stock in to cash in on this? May as well get some value for my tax dollars.
Irving ship yards.

Lockheed Martin
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Old 10-28-2022, 10:20 AM   #1769
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Yeah this is getting insane. I want us to have the newest and best but we're paying way way way over top dollar just to get average.
I am too, but this feels like a whole bunch of pork barrelling. Irving as part of the bid was suppossed to have the infrastructure and ship yards to build these ships. They didn't and now they're going to the government hat in hand for hundreds of millions.

There are already questions around the Type 26 Frigate, because of design changes they're going to be heavier, and slower then they need to be.

Australia who are also building the same frame are pretty unhappy with them, from being slow and heavy, to questions around crew safety and damage control. Their defense engineering team has warned that it has low confidence that the type 26 will meet their Navy's need.

I mean its a nice goal to talk about build in Canada solutions, I heard it with the Fighter Jet Replacement Program, the Helicopter program and the ship building program.

But realistically unless we're building our own frames for exports, its just a super expensive way to go, and it seems like every project becomes a major cost over run and accusations of corruption.

We should have just bought ships off of the line of other nations and then done modifications and canadianization here.
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Old 10-28-2022, 10:22 AM   #1770
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Irving ship yards.

Lockheed Martin
Crap, private company.
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Old 10-28-2022, 10:48 AM   #1771
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It's always fun to stop in on this thread from time to time to get good and mad/frustrated.
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Old 10-28-2022, 11:08 AM   #1772
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Crap, private company.
Lockheed has really been climbing today.
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Old 11-24-2022, 11:36 PM   #1773
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Another Canadian Veteran comes forward that he felt he was pressured to end his life through MAID.

https://nationalpost.com/news/second...g-support-call

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OTTAWA — A second Canadian Forces member has come forward with allegations that a Veterans Affairs Canada caseworker offered him medical assistance in dying after he asked for support for post-traumatic stress disorder

Still in active service, the Canadian Forces member referred to himself only by the pseudonym “Bruce,” out of fear of retaliation, in Wednesday’s episode of Operation Tango Romeo, a trauma-recovery podcast for Canadian Forces members hosted by former Canadian soldier and veterans advocate Mark Meincke

“I had been suffering from PTSD and recently had a lot of suicidal thoughts,” Bruce told Meincke during the gripping and emotional podcast, explaining he’d contacted Veterans Affairs Canada for help and awaited a return call from a caseworker.

“I was kinda hoping they would help me with my transition out of the military, help me find new doctors once I get out, and assist me with any other kind of claims I might have.


“I wasn’t expecting them to let me know ‘Hey, we had recently won litigation to assist members with MAID (medical assistance in dying), and you know that’s always an option,'” Bruce recalled, his voice steady but quavering.

“I was a little disturbed that if they had mentioned that to somebody else that was even worse off than I was, that could’ve been that little push over the edge.”
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Bruce said on the podcast that it was Meincke’s testimony last month that prompted him to come forward, lamenting that he didn’t come forward earlier.

“I wish I had said something earlier, because maybe that would’ve put a stop to it right then and there,” he said.

Bruce remembered telling the caseworker he certainly wasn’t seeking help ending his life, but said he got the impression the option was being pushed.

“I said I’m in a good place right now, I don’t need to worry about those things,” he recalled telling her.

“And she’s like ‘well I know, but it’s out there, if things get worse just let us know.'”

Bruce also alleged the caseworker mentioned that VAC had assisted a veteran win a recent court case to take his own life.

“That’s what I recall from the conversation, that she had said that they’d won a case in court to help with a veteran’s assistance in passing on.”
So he goes in to ask for transition help, and recommendations for Doctors, and comes out feeling pressured to end his life. And he's right, if it was someone worse off, would that conversation have pushed that person over the edge.

This is insane. Its not how MAID was supposed to be implemented where these people are directing the conversation towards suicide. Are we hiring serial killers? Is there a bonus structure in place, "you know, you saved the health care system some money, so here's a set of steak knives".

We've seen stories of people in financial dire straits opting for MAID. We had a doctor come out with the whole lets use it on Babies.

Who is directing and scripting these people?
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Old 11-25-2022, 10:10 AM   #1774
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Is there anything about our military that isn't broken?
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Old 11-25-2022, 11:04 AM   #1775
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Bunny ears for infantry? Other then that nope.

And I see that we're pushing to send troops to Haiti, Even as our Senior leaders are saying the CAF can't live up to its primary mission.
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Old 11-26-2022, 12:47 PM   #1776
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https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/cana...source=twitter

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OTTAWA - Canada’s military forces are “ready” to meet their commitments should Russia’s war in Ukraine spread to NATO countries, but it would be a “challenge” to launch a larger scale operation in the long term, with ongoing personnel and equipment shortages, according to Chief of the Defence Staff, Gen. Wayne Eyre.
Eyre told Joyce Napier on CTV’s Question Period, in an interview airing Sunday, that while the forces in Europe are “ready for the tactical mission they’ve been assigned,” he has larger concerns about strategic readiness. He said there’s a lack of people and equipment, and further concern around the ability to sustain a larger scale mission in the longer term.
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Eyre said Canada’s military would be “hard pressed” to launch another large-scale operation like it had in Afghanistan, as an example, without having to redistribute its resources around the globe, as threats evolve.
“The military that we have now is going to be increasingly called upon to support Canada and to support Canadian interests, to support our allies overseas, but as well at home,” Eyre said, citing Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, climate change impacting the landscape in the Arctic, and an increase in digital and cybersecurity threats.
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Meanwhile Defence Minister Anita Anand said on CTV’s Question Period last week that Canada should “be able to walk and chew gum at the same time,” and balance its NATO commitments with securing the Arctic and promoting peace in the Indo-Pacific.
Eyre said his number one priority is getting Canada’s armed forces up to full strength, with an attrition rate of 9.3 per cent between both regular and reserve forces, up from 6.9 per cent last year. The Canadian Armed Forces Retention Strategy was released just last month.
Geez, I wonder why the experienced members are leaving in droves. Maybe because they look at the rust out, the impossible length of time to get new equipment. The poor leadership from the top, a government that's willing to send poorly equipt units into the field.

Wonder why we can't get new members? Because the people that would be willing or be interested in the military and look at the state of the military, and a government that doesn't give a crap about the troops that serve and hard pass.

Our defense minister returned the unspent money meant about $1.2 billion back to the government. This is while we have severe material shortages, rusted out equipment, and just a completely awful system of procurement.

Also people aren't dumb. When our government promises to spend more on bold initiatives and ends up cutting spending, our military and our allies know that we're not serious.

We've already had CAF leadership saying that we can't live up to our mission of defending Canada. We probably can't do the same type of response to natural disasters that we used to, and its likely in the back rooms of NATO and Norad that when the mention of the Canadian Forces happen they roll their eyes to the ceiling.

Right now the mighty nation of Tongo could probably fight us to a Standstill. A poorly equipt Canadian Military with a serious moral and retention problem would probably spill a lot of blood if they had to fight in Europe or anywhere else.
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Old 12-02-2022, 06:28 PM   #1777
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Another veteran being pressured to die using MAID

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/vete...oyee-1.6179325

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A veteran and former Paralympian told a parliamentary committee that a caseworker from the Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC) offered her medical assistance in dying (MAID), a week after the Veterans Affairs Minister confirmed that at least four veterans were offered the same thing.
Retired Cpl. Christine Gauthier, who has been trying to get a wheelchair ramp installed at her home for the past five years, testified on Thursday that a caseworker told her that they could give her assisted dying, even offering to supply the MAID equipment for her.
"I was completely shocked and in despair," she told CTV's Power Play on Friday. "It is remotely just what they're doing: exhausting us to the point of no return."
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Gauthier said the offer for MAID came during a phone call with a VAC case worker where she was describing her deteriorating condition. In 1989, Gauthier suffered permanent damage to her knees and spine after jumping in a deep hole while training on an obstacle course.
"It was just getting too much and unbearable. And the person at VAC mentioned at that point, 'Well, you know that we can assist you with assisted dying now if you'd like.' And I was just shocked because I was like, 'Are you serious?' Like that easy, you're going to be helping me to die but you won't help me to live?" she said.
Quote:
It's unclear if Gauthier's experience being offered MAID was one of the four that were uncovered during the investigation.
At last week's committee meeting, Conservative MP Blake Richards asked MacAulay about a veteran who came forward on the podcast Tango Romeo about being offered MAID in November 2021. MacAulay told the committee the story described on the podcast was not one of the four confirmed instances, suggesting that there may be more veterans who have been offered MAID.

"In that case, either something was missed in this investigation, or there is another employee involved. And now it's a matter of determining which of those two things it is. In either case, that's concerning," Richards said on Nov. 24.
If it is one employee they basically have a serial killer. However my feeling is that this is a undocumented policy.

Its gross, nobody should feel pressured to kill themselves, especially someone in a position of vulnerability.
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Old 12-03-2022, 04:19 PM   #1778
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Canadian Forces heading for a monumental collapse.

Interesting column that goes with the stories earlier that the CAF can execute their primary mission anymore.

https://archive.ph/foYQf#selection-1135.0-1135.60

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The Titanic, says General Wayne Eyre, the Chief of the Defence Staff for the Canadian Armed Forces, is sinking.
The CAF is estimated to be short-staffed by about 10,000 members, Gen. Eyre said in October, and he wants to add 5,000 more to their ranks. To achieve this, he called for a “whole-of-society effort” for the military while it attempts to solve its recruitment and staffing problems. “We need to rebuild the Armed Forces, we need to get the numbers back up,” he said, “and we’ve got to do it with a sense of urgency and priority because it is affecting our ability to respond around the world.”
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Support for our troops is certainly necessary, but it doesn’t deal with the fundamental problem: The Canadian Armed Forces no longer reflect the principles and values of the Canadian populace, or of a modern Canadian work force. If this is not addressed, any reform will only amount to a shuffling of the deck chairs.
Military leaders like to say that “people are our most valuable resource,” and yet this most precious commodity has been steadily leaving for years. This is a reflection of CAF members’ sense that they are not valued; indeed, while leaders talk about the value of their people, they just as often talk about “the primacy of operations”: the idea that the missions assigned by the Canadian government come first – and thus, people come second. This is the contradiction at the heart of another popular military phrase, “mission first, people always.” This was felt in the ranks after Corporal Lionel Desmond’s 2017 murder-suicide after dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder; the ensuing inquiry left CAF members feeling that they might be callously discarded if they became seen as unfit for duty, and dumped onto the health care system.
Personally I think Ken is way off of the mark in his concepts here. It goes far beyond just the issue of personal fulfillment and limited deployments and unionization. What he's going to do is fill the ranks with the wrong type of people, Ken also doesn't understand the primary concept of basic drill, and building unit cohension, and dicipline.

So while I agree with him that the Forces are on the verge or are collapsing, I dissagree that his fix is going to create a larger mess.

Govermental neglect of capital investment means the loss of highly skilled pilots, naval personal and ground force personal, as none of these people are going to stay interested in serving a military that doesn't care about their safety and their ability to survive in the field.

The failure of multiple governments to properly deal with Veteran issues, and mental health has an effect of recruitment.

Ken's methods will actually drive out dedicated members.

Canada has failed the armed forces, after lofty promises of increasing spending, they've drawn back, our defense minister returned 1.2 billion in spending to the general accounts unspent.

Our air force is flying 50 year old outdated fighters as their primary plane. Our Frigates and submarines are end of life, and the replacements of the frigates are going badly, and submarines which are miracle machines for maritime defense have no replacement in mind and its rare that we can deploy our current submarines.

Frankly bringing 50 and 60 year old equipment into the modern battlefield is dangerous, and unsafe and shows a lack of care to the members that have to deploy.

Our ground forces by the way, our so called sharpened spear is in particularly bad shape. We are falling behind on armor, we've given away most of our artillery to the Ukraine, and the Canadian Military has no real ability to defend troops from air attack as Canada has no deployable air defense and early warning equipment.

Personally, I think the CAF is in a sunset, no government has the balls to do what must be done which is a comprehensive and large capital spend to modern the force and create a modern interlinked military.

At the same time there's a reason why some traditions need to be respected when it comes to training, but the Forces is losing any veterans who have actually been there and done that so training is going to suffer.

Trying to recruit members just to recruit numbers is going to be an abject failure. You still need to understand what makes a good sailor, soldier, or airman, and how to lavishly train them.

What I do agree with is yes, they need to be paid and housed better, and our veterans need better care.

But I think its too late.
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Old 12-05-2022, 02:22 PM   #1779
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Danny Fortin acquitted on sexual assault charges.

https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20.../#.Y45gYX3MJD-

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GATINEAU, Que. — A Quebec civilian judge has acquitted Maj.-Gen. Dany Fortin of sexual assault over an allegation that dates back to 1988.
Judge Richard Meredith said he believes the complainant was sexually assaulted, but said the Crown did not establish beyond a reasonable doubt that it was Fortin who had assaulted her.
Quote:
The complainant in the case told the court that she is certain "without a doubt" that the perpetrator was Fortin, and her lawyer said she brought the incident to light in 2021, after she retired, due to a fear of career repercussions.
Fortin's lawyer cited inconsistencies between the complainant's testimony and her previous statements to investigators last year, including details of the incident.
A key point for the defence was that while the complainant said she told her then-boyfriend about the incident right afterward, he told the court he had no memory of such a conversation.
Meredith noted those inconsistencies Monday, as well as contradicting testimony regarding the location of lampposts in an adjacent parking lot, and whether the dorm window had shutters.
The judge said in French the lighting in the room was “very far from optimal conditions for seeing clearly” and noted that the complainant must have been in shock when the incident occurred.
“The tribunal is otherwise convinced that the complainant was sexually assaulted. Generally, the complainant seemed sincere in this regard," Meredith said in French, as he read out his ruling to the court.
"The reasons that explain why she had lived for so many years in silence, and which led her to ultimately file a complaint, are quite reasonable and credible,” he said.
“The tribunal has no doubt of her sincerity. In this regard, the court sympathizes with her, considering the suffering she experienced. However, the tribunal’s decision cannot be based on sympathy.”
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Old 12-05-2022, 03:51 PM   #1780
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https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/perm...s%20by%20March.

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Permanent residents can now apply to join the Canadian Armed Forces, regardless of whether they have been trained by a foreign military.
It's the latest effort by Canada's military to boost recruitment numbers, which are lagging well behind the target of adding 5,900 new members by March.
Bodies are needed
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