Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Matt Reeeeead]

The more I read about this, the biggest thing that bothers me are the two sides are presenting terms based on completely different ideals and visions. They haven't even agreed on basic definitions and principles. To some degree, both sides should be completely embarrassed that negotiations have leaked out in public without even being able to construct basic parameters for a deal.

How are the dollars and pie charts supposed to even be analyzed and negotiated in an honest matter without even breaking past that point. No reason to wonder why we are stuck with where we are. The two sides talk past each other based on principles the other side doesn't acknowledge as reasonable.

They should restart negotiations from square one and get to some kind of agreement on the basic principles to structure a deal, and look at the dollars from there. This levy would have some value to the city, and makes logical sense to structure in the deal, but to what degree? I'd expect it belongs in both deals with a dollar amount to be negotiated based on independent studies of past comps.

I'm not taking sides at this point. From an honest negotiation standpoint, both sides have missed the mark.


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[EldrickOnIce]

I think that neither the Flames nor the City wanting ownership of a new building says all that currently needs saying.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Honestly, why does this arena have to cost $550 million? Would a $350 million arena not do the trick? This question seems especially relevant considering how disposable these facilities have become.

It does seem like that would be an obvious solution. Doesn't even seem to be on the table for some reason though.

Winnipegs arena cost like 150M I believe

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by pylon

Most people do realise that. But Nenshi came across as a smug little twerp from day one. Regardless of how utterly awesome Nenshi thinks he is (just ask him and I'm sure he'll tell you), he's the face of the city in a negotiation with people that pay more tax in a year, than Nenshi makes in a term. I don't know if it's typical small man syndrome, but Nenshi seems to like to antagonise people and companies that are far more successful, and frankly way above his 'pay grade' of success. Wenzel, UBER, The Flames, and I'm sure I'm missing others.

Again, this mans legacy is now going to be one the likes Peter Pocklington. A hero at first, but the ultimate villain in the end. I don't agree with the Flames proposal, but Nenshi's ego and horrible tact from day one is why we are here. You think a guy like Murray Edwards is going to let Nenshi push him around and berate his corporation in public?

I sometimes feel like you live in an alternate reality from the one I live in.

I'm not suggesting that mine is more correct than yours. I just find the differences in perception to be fascinating.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by pylon

Most people do realise that. But Nenshi came across as a smug little twerp from day one. Regardless of how utterly awesome Nenshi thinks he is (just ask him and I'm sure he'll tell you), he's the face of the city in a negotiation with people that pay more tax in a year, than Nenshi makes in a term. I don't know if it's typical small man syndrome, but Nenshi seems to like to antagonise people and companies that are far more successful, and frankly way above his 'pay grade' of success. Wenzel, UBER, The Flames, and I'm sure I'm missing others.

Again, this mans legacy is now going to be one the likes Peter Pocklington. A hero at first, but the ultimate villain in the end. I don't agree with the Flames proposal, but Nenshi's ego and horrible tact from day one is why we are here. You think a guy like Murray Edwards is going to let Nenshi push him around and berate his corporation in public?

You're embarrassing yourself.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by pylon

Most people do realise that. But Nenshi came across as a smug little twerp from day one. Regardless of how utterly awesome Nenshi thinks he is (just ask him and I'm sure he'll tell you), he's the face of the city in a negotiation with people that pay more tax in a year, than Nenshi makes in a term. I don't know if it's typical small man syndrome, but Nenshi seems to like to antagonise people and companies that are far more successful, and frankly way above his 'pay grade' of success. Wenzel, UBER, The Flames, and I'm sure I'm missing others.

Again, this mans legacy is now going to be one the likes Peter Pocklington. A hero at first, but the ultimate villain in the end. I don't agree with the Flames proposal, but Nenshi's ego and horrible tact from day one is why we are here. You think a guy like Murray Edwards is going to let Nenshi push him around and berate his corporation in public?

You continue to blame Nenshi while ignoring the fact that he's still willing to negotiate. It takes two sides to get a deal done, the flames and Ken King pouting and behaving like they are entitled to what they are asking for isn't Nenshi's doing, it's their own choice. They know where the city is at and the city knows where they are at, if the team doesn't want to negotiate and at the same time are not announcing they are planning on moving due to Calgary being an unviable market then maybe they shouldn't be asking for tax payer money during a recession if it's not vital to their business.

[Backlunds_socks]

Originally Posted by pylon

Most people do realise that. But Nenshi came across as a smug little twerp from day one. Regardless of how utterly awesome Nenshi thinks he is (just ask him and I'm sure he'll tell you), he's the face of the city in a negotiation with people that pay more tax in a year, than Nenshi makes in a term. I don't know if it's typical small man syndrome, but Nenshi seems to like to antagonise people and companies that are far more successful, and frankly way above his 'pay grade' of success. Wenzel, UBER, The Flames, and I'm sure I'm missing others.

Again, this mans legacy is now going to be one the likes Peter Pocklington. A hero at first, but the ultimate villain in the end. I don't agree with the Flames proposal, but Nenshi's ego and horrible tact from day one is why we are here. You think a guy like Murray Edwards is going to let Nenshi push him around and berate his corporation in public?

What are you on? Seriously the Flames are a private business that generate income for their owners - why should we the tax payer subsidize their business? Riddle me that Batman

[cDnStealth]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Honestly, why does this arena have to cost $550 million? Would a $350 million arena not do the trick? This question seems especially relevant considering how disposable these facilities have become.

This is a great question. If the city is going to be looked at to assume the majority of the responsibility/financial risk then why does it have to be so expensive? If we're really gifting the Flames an arena then they should have very little say in terms of where it's located, what it looks like or how fancy it is.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by nik-

You're embarrassing yourself.

No he isn't. He's expressing his point of view, and here you are trying to silence it by putting him down. Disagree with him all you want, but to say he's embarrassing himself because you disagree with him is ridiculous.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

No he isn't. He's expressing his point of view, and here you are trying to silence it by putting him down. Disagree with him, but to say he's embarrassing himself because you disagree with him is ridiculous.

He's throwing a tantrum, so yeah he is.

No one here is capable of silencing anyone else, so stop with this bull####.

[JFK]

Oh good, what this thread really needed was an overly emotional, not set in reality pylon rant. Credit for not using affliction T or white sunglasses anywhere. It appears you want our mayor to roll over and die anytime someone with a bigger wallet challenges him. Utterly brilliant.

Don't know if Nenshi suffers from small man syndrome but small brain syndrome is a thing others suffer from.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I think that neither the Flames nor the City wanting ownership of a new building says all that currently needs saying.

Has that been stated? I don't think either side minds owning the building, they'd both just prefer to pay as little as possible for it.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Has that been stated? I don't think either side minds owning the building, they'd both just prefer to pay as little as possible for it.

Nenshi said the city was open to negotiate who owned the building. I'm pretty sure what he said isn't accurate.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I sometimes feel like you live in an alternate reality from the one I live in.

I'm not suggesting that mine is more correct than yours. I just find the differences in perception to be fascinating.

I get the Flames proposal sucks. And they can leave for all I care if that's their line in the sand. But there was a far more diplomatic way to knock down Calgary NEXT and a far, far better way than releasing the city proposal and basically exposing what should have been confidential negotiations to the public.

He poked a big bear, and instead of the bear mauling him, it just looked at him, raised it's eyebrow and walked away.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Has that been stated? I don't think either side minds owning the building, they'd both just prefer to pay as little as possible for it.

They both wrote into their plans that the other party is the owner.

[JFK]

Originally Posted by pylon

He poked a big bear, and instead of the bear mauling him, it just looked at him, raised it's eyebrow and walked away.

Took his ball, went home, and complained to mommy is more like it.

[Backlunds_socks]

Originally Posted by pylon

Most people do realise that. But Nenshi came across as a smug little twerp from day one. Regardless of how utterly awesome Nenshi thinks he is (just ask him and I'm sure he'll tell you), he's the face of the city in a negotiation with people that pay more tax in a year, than Nenshi makes in a term. I don't know if it's typical small man syndrome, but Nenshi seems to like to antagonise people and companies that are far more successful, and frankly way above his 'pay grade' of success. Wenzel, UBER, The Flames, and I'm sure I'm missing others.

Again, this mans legacy is now going to be one the likes Peter Pocklington. A hero at first, but the ultimate villain in the end. I don't agree with the Flames proposal, but Nenshi's ego and horrible tact from day one is why we are here. You think a guy like Murray Edwards is going to let Nenshi push him around and berate his corporation in public?

Originally Posted by pylon

I get the Flames proposal sucks. And they can leave for all I care if that's their line in the sand. But there was a far more diplomatic way to knock down Calgary NEXT and a far, far better way than releasing the city proposal and basically exposing what should have been confidential negotiations to the public.

He poked a big bear, and instead of the bear mauling him, it just looked at him, raised it's eyebrow and walked away.

Haha, CSEC is not a bear - they need the city not vice-versa. CSECs like a little parasite that can be helpful at times.

[Manhattanboy]

Way to go Flames.

Congratulations on totally alienating one of your most loyal, vocal supporters, a family that has faithfully purchased season tickets every year since you moved from Atlanta.

Congratulations on totally spoiling the start of the season. Right now I have no desire to go anywhere near the Saddledome.

Cue all the "hey bro I'll take your tickets if you don't want 'em" posts.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

If the Flames offer is their breaking point they can enjoy their move to Seattle.

I LOVE the game of hockey, but not enough to have an NHL franchise bend me over as a taxpayer.

what is it, like $10 per taxpayer? And you feel bent over?

[Red Slinger]

I often don't like the way Nenshi conveys his message but I usually like the message.
In this particular case I think Ken King has done a disservice to this community with the theatrics introduced into this conversation. I don't know if Ken King is necessarily the main issue or not but I'm pretty sure this conversation would be substantially different with an ownership group led by Harley Hotchkiss and Doc Seaman.