Electric vehicle war, is gas soon to be toast?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by chedder

But our current electricity generation in Alberta is 43% coal and 49% natural gas for a total of 92% fossil fuels.

All is ok as long as our cars run on a battery?

What is really needed is a shift in power production but, unlike other provinces, we don't have any water so the only alternative is uranium like Ontario.

Ye, that's obviously an issue. I had just run the numbers because I was curious if it was within the realm of possibility as a percentage increase. Clearly we need to replace coal as a first step, but that still leaves us a long way to go to be "green", which is why I'm not convinced we need to all rush out and buy EV's in Alberta. In Quebec? Hell ya, have at 'er. They have the hydro to do it green. Not so much here. Which is going to have the country turning on us even more in the future.

[zamler]

Southern Alberta gets about the most sunshine in Canada why don't we build some giant scale solar farms? What am I missing. This city gets the most sun of any in Canada.

The reason I'm bullish on home solar is waiting for governments to do anything is, well waiting for governments to do anything.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by zamler

Southern Alberta gets about the most sunshine in Canada why don't we build some giant scale solar farms? What am I missing. This city gets the most sun of any in Canada.

Because being best in Canada is still not that great compared to the US. Alberta electricity demand also peaks in the winter.

The reason I'm bullish on home solar is waiting for governments to do anything is, well waiting for governments to do anything.

Home solar only works with government subsidies. Take away the big one, net-metering and it dies, even for sunny places with badly run and failing grids like California.

[Fuzz]

We are building a pretty big one:
https://www.tcenergy.com/siteassets/...fact-sheet.pdf


The current largest one is in Brooks, but only produces 15MW(at absolute peak). FWIW I ran numbers awhile ago(sorry, don't have the math saved) but it works out to about 15-18% of nameplate capacity for solar gives you actual generation averaged over a year(Alberta specific). So even that 100MW is only 15-18MW, which on the scale of Alberta consumption (10GW), well, it leaves a long way to go.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Hydrogen sounds like a great alternative, but it's got a whole host of challenges. So do batteries, but batteries were a lot easier to implement quickly. So here we are.

I can see a whole lot more service problems with Hydrogen than EV's

[zamler]

How long to fuel cells last? I also wonder what happens in winter if every car on the road is pissing water.

[Cappy]

Agreed that a big issue is the current electricity production in Alberta (even worse in the US); however, even if we were operating electricity on natural gas, there are still some benefits to mass EV adoption. For example, exhaust pollution and noise pollution are significantly reduced.

[TorqueDog]

Nuclear power plants. Do eet.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Nuclear power plants. Do eet.

Clearly the ideal route for Alberta. Now if only someone could figure out how to build them on time and on budget.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Clearly the ideal route for Alberta. Now if only someone could figure out how to build them on time and on budget.

That has never stopped this province from doing anything before, why start now?

[Fuzz]

Not true! Look what the NDP started...

https://www.todayville.com/construct...t-and-on-time/

[GreenLantern2814]

We could have built a nuclear plant with The $7.5 billion in investment and loan guarantees for Keystone.

They do pay for themselves many times over when their life cycle is done - a modern 3rd generation reactor can last over a century now.

(Oh, and all the nuclear waste ever produced on earth by power stations would fit in a building the size of your average Costco- we can find places to put it)

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by zamler

How long to fuel cells last? I also wonder what happens in winter if every car on the road is pissing water.

A quick google search (give it a try) would indicate that fuel cell lifespan isn't an issue, generally in the 10's of thousands of hours range, essentially the full lifespan of a car)
As for cars pissing water, they already do.
Water is a byproduct of combustion.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

As for cars pissing water, they already do.
Water is a byproduct of combustion.

Once the engine is warm volume is minimal. H car literally pisses water, maybe not enough to matter maybe it is not sure. Also won't it freeze in the bladder?

Bleh I hate FCEVs so much they slow, heavy, inefficient and no infrastructure. Building out a hydrogen fueling network would be insanely expensive. And oil companies love it they are the ones with the H stations.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by zamler

Once the engine is warm volume is minimal. H car literally pisses water, maybe not enough to matter maybe it is not sure. Also won't it freeze in the bladder?

Bleh I hate FCEVs so much they slow, heavy, inefficient and no infrastructure. Building out a hydrogen fueling network would be insanely expensive. And oil companies love it they are the ones with the H stations.

Hybrids used to suck too, and now McLaren makes one that goes around the Nurburgring in seven minutes.

Give engineers an engine, and they’ll figure out bananas ways to make it go fast.

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Hybrids used to suck too, and now McLaren makes one that goes around the Nurburgring in seven minutes.

Give engineers an engine, and they’ll figure out bananas ways to make it go fast.

Ferrari just announced a turbo V6 PHEV with more than 800 hp total. It’s too bad hybrids didn’t start out in cool cars, instead of the goofy Prius, then maybe there’s be more adoption of then now.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by zamler

Once the engine is warm volume is minimal. H car literally pisses water, maybe not enough to matter maybe it is not sure. Also won't it freeze in the bladder?

Bleh I hate FCEVs so much they slow, heavy, inefficient and no infrastructure. Building out a hydrogen fueling network would be insanely expensive. And oil companies love it they are the ones with the H stations.

I'm going to assume you're saying that once the engine warms up, any water produced is vapour and therefore doesn't end up on the road?
I would think that a fair bit of it would, as any water coming out of that tail pipe is likely to condense/freeze when it's cold enough to actually matter.
I'm not sure if the byproduct from a fuel cell is liquid water or vapour, but even if it is liquid and 100% ends up on the road it looks like the volume/km driven is the same as a gas engine:

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcell...-cell-vehicles

Doesn't seem like much, but I suppose it could add up, but I would also assume that in the winter a good portion of what comes out of out tailpipes is also landing on the roads after it condenses/freezes.

Would be interesting to find out, but in the worst case scenario, it's not gonna be an insurmountable problem for hydrogen cars.

[Fuzz]

It's a problem you can stop worrying about:

Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (FCVs) emit approximately the same amount of water per mile as vehicles using gasoline-powered internal combustion engines (ICEs).

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcell...-cell-vehicles

[Cappy]

I am not knowledgeable on hydrogen fuel cells and their efficacy through mass production; but i sometimes think the people/industries pushing hydrogen over EVs are merely a ploy to delay the inevitable move from hydrocarbons.

Like, is Shell pushing hydrogen because they see it as (1) a potential transition for the company to another resource they can control; and (2) is it due to the fact they know hydrogen is a decade or two away so it gives them a chance to keep extracting the reserves they have

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I am not knowledgeable on hydrogen fuel cells and their efficacy through mass production; but i sometimes think the people/industries pushing hydrogen over EVs are merely a ploy to delay the inevitable move from hydrocarbons.

Like, is Shell pushing hydrogen because they see it as (1) a potential transition for the company to another resource they can control; and (2) is it due to the fact they know hydrogen is a decade or two away so it gives them a chance to keep extracting the reserves they have

Probably both really