Systemic Racism in US and Canada

[Samonadreau]

Such a slippery slope and fine line. Could be similar scenario to Holtby's mask. Nice gesture and good intensions, maybe missing a layer or point of inclusion.

[GirlySports]

That is interesting. Are the black people in the collage students or just random strangers pulled from somewhere? I did the high school yearbook 100 years ago, anything (pictures, features, articles) outside of the official photos themselves, we had to get permission.

[blankall]

I'd find it very weird if it was students at the school. Basically singling them out due to race. The intent is meant to be positive, as evidenced by the opposing page. I'd agree with the BLM group though, that the execution was sloppy and the pages should be pulled.

[Oling_Roachinen]

If all of the students being singled out consented to it, then I don't necessarily fault the school that much. Part of the yearbook should be giving student's control over what's in it and how to approach these type of topics. Of course oversight is required, but if the yearbook supervisor teacher was told by all the students that's how they wanted to capture the BLM protests and express their support for one another, then I can see where they are coming from even if it was pretty stupid to allow it. I can even understand the school being 'afraid' of the optics if the students came up with an idea to show support for BLM and Black students in their yearbook and being told they couldn't.

However, if one or two students said during the focus group that they should just put all the Black students on a page and then never asked each one how they felt, that's obviously a huge oversight to allow that to happen.

The obviously solution though would just to have some form of diversity student group, whether it's to discuss Black, LGBT, women, minority, Indigenous issues, or all of the above, and then post the students who were in that group to the page. You know, actually having a group to try and do something about minority issues instead of just acknowledging that minorities exist.

[FlamesAddiction]

Toronto has announced that they will rename Dundas Street and other things named after Henry Dundas. Dundas was a politician who delayed the abolition of the slave trade within the British Empire.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1415429577787297798

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Toronto has announced that they will rename Dundas Street and other things named after Henry Dundas. Dundas was a politician who delayed the abolition of the slave trade within the British Empire.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1415429577787297798

Yeah I'm fine with that.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Toronto has announced that they will rename Dundas Street and other things named after Henry Dundas. Dundas was a politician who delayed the abolition of the slave trade within the British Empire.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1415429577787297798

Should all be numbers anyway. Toronto and Vancouver street names are idiotic.

[Swift]

Firstly, I have no affiliation with Toronto (I've spent all of a day there) and didn't know who Henry Dundas was before this morning (The wikipedia article suggests that he's a more nuanced character than just all round bad guy - He disagreed with slavery in principle, and successfully fought a court case in Scotland's highest court which resulted in slavery being prohibited on Scottish soil. The contention stems from him tabling an amendment to a proposed bill to end the slave trade inserting the word "gradual" rather than "immediate". Some historians argue that this was a calculated move to indefinitely delay abolition; some argue that the bill wouldn't have passed without the word "gradual" in there. Either way, it doesn't seem as cut and dried to state that he was an anti-abolitionist) A clearer argument I've seen put out there for not having a street named after him is that he'd never been to Toronto and had no connection with the place. The street was named after him by a a Lt Gov of Upper Canada who was a friend of his. But again, I have no strong opinion on him or the street being re-named.

However, I saw in the CBC article that the re-naming of this one street will cost $6m+. Surely there's a better way to spend that money? Surely there's a better way for that money to actually help disenfranchised people in the city? What does re-naming the street actually achieve? Is anybody's life made better by this? I find it hard to believe that the average black person previously walked down the street constantly thinking "this is the street named after the guy who delayed the passing of the Slave Trade Act in Britain in 1792 and this makes me really upset" I would imagine that the vast, vast majority of people gave no thought whatsoever to who the street was named after and never heard of the guy anyway, in much the same way we walk down Stephen Ave without constantly wondering who the street is named after and what he was like as a person.

I get that it's a symbolic gesture that will have some meaning for some people, but it's ultimately a quite hollow gesture (and potentially expensive if more and more street name origins are investigated)

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Swift

Firstly, I have no affiliation with Toronto (I've spent all of a day there) and didn't know who Henry Dundas was before this morning (The wikipedia article suggests that he's a more nuanced character than just all round bad guy - He disagreed with slavery in principle, and successfully fought a court case in Scotland's highest court which resulted in slavery being prohibited on Scottish soil. The contention stems from him tabling an amendment to a proposed bill to end the slave trade inserting the word "gradual" rather than "immediate". Some historians argue that this was a calculated move to indefinitely delay abolition; some argue that the bill wouldn't have passed without the word "gradual" in there. Either way, it doesn't seem as cut and dried to state that he was an anti-abolitionist) A clearer argument I've seen put out there for not having a street named after him is that he'd never been to Toronto and had no connection with the place. The street was named after him by a a Lt Gov of Upper Canada who was a friend of his. But again, I have no strong opinion on him or the street being re-named.

I was going to make a post on the same matter, that Dundas's legacy and the purpose of the gradual tactic on abolition is hotly debated. His motives turned suspect during the war against France however as he facilitated using slaves as soldiers to protect the sugar trade.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...igation-finds/

I am of the thought process that I have no love for Dundas, but the street named after him has been in existence for almost a century longer then Canada as a country. You are removing a historical figure for 2010 world context versus 1792 context.

Thomas Jefferson has owned over 600 slaves in his life, yet is revered as a founder of the US.

George Washington has also owned slaves and has a checkered history. He of course remains on the 1$ bill (poor Jefferson got stuck with the 2$ one)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/histo...ory-be-hidden/

Dundas has never owned slaves himself on record (I haven't found any such info).

Dundas was most certainly a figure talked about in Ontario high schools as part of history along with Simcoe. I firmly remember the story of how Dundas St was built, how it's name came from and it's significance to the region. His part in abolition (positive or negative) was never talked about in school.

Of course we also did not learn of residential schools.

We don't need to honour historical figures and shouldn't, I just think Dundas has gotten a bit of a bad rep and became a symbol.

Moves like this however I don't see as fighting systemic racism. It's a street name that most people don't know where it came from.

Let's take Stephen ave for example. Does anyone know where it came from?

It came from Lord George Mount Stephen the first president of the Canadian Pacific Railway, the company largely responsible for the deaths of hundreds of asians

https://www.cbc.ca/history/EPISCONTE...1CH3PA3LE.html

Hatred against Asians boiled over in September 1907, at a huge protest rally at Vancouver City Hall organized by the newly formed Asiatic Exclusion League. Half the citys 30,000 people turned out for the rally wearing ribbons that said "For a White Canada."

Part of the crowd of about 7,000 men turned on Chinatown. For three days, Asian homes and businesses were vandalized.

You would have to effectively remove all street names of any historical figure in the past, Pierre Elliott Trudeau included (some day we will see the white paper as similar in nature). In the meantime, we avoid subjects that makes Canadians as a whole looking racist.

It's the Church doing this, it's Ryerson, it's Dundas.

No, it's us.

This faux outrage is deflecting from the systematic racism that should be targeted today.

This goes way beyond a street name. Canadians need to reflect on systemic racism today versus token gestures that are only meant to provide us with a pat on the back

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Thomas Jefferson has owned over 600 slaves in his life, yet is revered as a founder of the US.

George Washington has also owned slaves and has a checkered history. He of course remains on the 1$ bill (poor Jefferson got stuck with the 2$ one)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/histo...ory-be-hidden/

I'm not sure I want the US as our measuring stick for such things........

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I'm not sure I want the US as our measuring stick for such things........

Of course the US is a horrible measuring tool for levels of racism, but theirs is more transparent or blatant, while our is embedded. I made a long post on the matter at the beginning of this thread.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Should all be numbers anyway. Toronto and Vancouver street names are idiotic.

Vancouver is changing Trutch Street as well.
Pretty soon only the tree streets will be left, until they becomes a problem in a future decade.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Vancouver is changing Trutch Street as well.
Pretty soon only the tree streets will be left, until they becomes a problem in a future decade.

As they should. It's embarrassing to have anything named after that bastard. Imagine being Indigenous and having to look at that name everyday.

It's worse in Victoria though, where that name is found everywhere.

[Red Slinger]

Street names, statues, and other monuments are meant to celebrate the people they're named after, not just remember them. Why should we celebrate those that inflicted suffering on others, sometimes on a mass scale? The problem is where do you draw the line. Never in history has their been a perfect human. Not Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Socrates, Mohammed, Mother Theresa, Gandhi, MLK, Sitting Bull, Gord Downey or others. Every single person in the history of the planet has done something to hurt someone else. Usually the more historically famous you are the more people you've made suffer. Honestly, I would be fine if we just got rid of all street names and numbered them instead. I've never liked statues either. I prefer great architecture and art installations (come at me bro).

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Street names, statues, and other monuments are meant to celebrate the people they're named after, not just remember them. Why should we celebrate those that inflicted suffering on others, sometimes on a mass scale? The problem is where do you draw the line. Never in history has their been a perfect human. Not Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Socrates, Mohammed, Mother Theresa, Gandhi, MLK, Sitting Bull, Gord Downey or others. Every single person in the history of the planet has done something to hurt someone else. Usually the more historically famous you are the more people you've made suffer. Honestly, I would be fine if we just got rid of all street names and numbered them instead. I've never liked statues either. I prefer great architecture and art installations (come at me bro).

There's the solution. Re-name all the controversial stuff after Gord, and Hip songs and lyrics. You'd have full support. Dundas who now? I'm heading down to Cordelia.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Street names, statues, and other monuments are meant to celebrate the people they're named after, not just remember them. Why should we celebrate those that inflicted suffering on others, sometimes on a mass scale? The problem is where do you draw the line. Never in history has their been a perfect human. Not Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Socrates, Mohammed, Mother Theresa, Gandhi, MLK, Sitting Bull, Gord Downey or others. Every single person in the history of the planet has done something to hurt someone else. Usually the more historically famous you are the more people you've made suffer. Honestly, I would be fine if we just got rid of all street names and numbered them instead. I've never liked statues either. I prefer great architecture and art installations (come at me bro).

Alternatively, we can recognize all humans are all flawed - as you note - and stop being so pious and judgemental. Abstain from getting drunk on moral outrage.

It’s all theatre. What tangible good does it actually achieve? If we were to tear down all the statues and rename all the streets in one community, and leave them all unchanged in another, what measurable, empirical differences would we expect to see in those two communities 20 years later?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

As they should. It's embarrassing to have anything named after that bastard. Imagine being Indigenous and having to look at that name everyday.

It's worse in Victoria though, where that name is found everywhere.

Yeah, I just read there's a Trutch St in Victoria too.
I had no idea who he was until last week, I thought it was a type of tree like most of the streets going that way in Vancouver.

Seems we have streets named after provinces, followed by streets named after trees, followed by streets named after racists.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Alternatively, we can recognize all humans are all flawed - as you note - and stop being so pious and judgemental. Abstain from getting drunk on moral outrage.

It’s all theatre. What tangible good does it actually achieve? If we were to tear down all the statues and rename all the streets in one community, and leave them all unchanged in another, what measurable, empirical differences would we expect to see in those two communities 20 years later?

Well it shows a whole segment of our countries population who we have systemically shat on that we recognise we need to make amends, I mean it doesn't actually help the family of a victim of a drunk driver when they tearfully say how sorry they are but I think we'd agree its still a good thing to do.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Well it shows a whole segment of our countries population who we have systemically shat on that we recognise we need to make amends, I mean it doesn't actually help the family of a victim of a drunk driver when they tearfully say how sorry they are but I think we'd agree its still a good thing to do.

That isn’t tangible help. I’d wager if you polled every Indigenous Canadian if they would rather a dozen streets and schools change their names, or instead take the tens of millions that will cost and give them each a $20 gift Tim Hortons gift certificate, the latter option would win in a landslide.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

That isn’t tangible help. I’d wager if you polled every Indigenous Canadian if they would rather a dozen streets and schools change their names, or instead take the tens of millions that will cost and give them each a $20 gift Tim Hortons gift certificate, the latter option would win in a landslide.

I don’t think white people should be deciding what is and isn’t tangible help for indigenous people anymore.