American Politics Thread: Orange is the new POTUS

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

More slight of hand from you, got anymore conservative straw men arguments to put forth?

Individualism: Is the idea that the individual’s life belongs to him and that he has an inalienable right to live it as he sees fit, to act on his own judgment, to keep and use the product of his effort, and to pursue the values of his choosing. It’s the idea that the individual is sovereign, an end in himself, and the fundamental unit of moral concern.

Collectivism: is the idea that the individual’s life belongs not to him but to the group or society of which he is merely a part, that he has no rights, and that he must sacrifice his values and goals for the group’s “greater good.” According to collectivism, the group or society is the basic unit of moral concern, and the individual is of value only insofar as he serves the group.

It doesn't mean that people don't work together to fulfill their needs mutually. Both ideas try to accomplish the same thing, just one works so much better. I know the idea of voluntarism and the free market are lost on, you want a centrally planned nanny state to tell you how to live.

Ah the free market, where groups of people collectively exchange commodities and securities of corporations which are groups of people acting as one entity. Individualism at its finest.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

More slight of hand from you, got anymore conservative straw men arguments to put forth?

Individualism: Is the idea that the individual’s life belongs to him and that he has an inalienable right to live it as he sees fit, to act on his own judgment, to keep and use the product of his effort, and to pursue the values of his choosing. It’s the idea that the individual is sovereign, an end in himself, and the fundamental unit of moral concern.

Collectivism: is the idea that the individual’s life belongs not to him but to the group or society of which he is merely a part, that he has no rights, and that he must sacrifice his values and goals for the group’s “greater good.” According to collectivism, the group or society is the basic unit of moral concern, and the individual is of value only insofar as he serves the group.

It doesn't mean that people don't work together to fulfill their needs mutually. Both ideas try to accomplish the same thing, just one works so much better. I know the idea of voluntarism and the free market are lost on, you want a centrally planned nanny state to tell you how to live.

So why is a publicly-funded military, transportation and infrastructure just super awesome, but healthcare is just a no-go for individualists?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

So what is progressive taxation then, but another way to redistribute wealth to the "collective"? They get to keep some of the fruits of their labour, but not all. Does this seem fair to you?

Considering that most of the people at minimum wage work MUCH harder and keep less of the results of their effort than the people at the top end of the spectrum, yes progressive taxation is fair.

To illustrate the point:
"Trump says he thought being president would be easier than his old life"

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Like which ones?

It's a hard comparison to make. It's essentially an apples to oranges comparison because each nation has different underlying circumstances to deal with.

It's hard to take a small country like Denmark and compare it to a giant country like the USA.

[rubecube]

nm

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

So what is progressive taxation then, but another way to redistribute wealth to the "collective" the less fortunate, economically disadvantaged, and elderly? They get to keep some of the fruits of their labour, but not all. Does this seem fair to you?

Does that help?

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

Oh like the mainstream media you listen to is any better. It's the same garbage all around, that's why it's becoming irrelevant.

predictable response. straight from Breitbart front page.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Ah the free market, where groups of people collectively exchange commodities and securities of corporations which are groups of people acting as one entity. Individualism at its finest.

That's the problem with having a corporation, it's a paper shield that diffuses personal accountability in situations. There's pros and cons to this.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

That's the problem with having a corporation, it's a paper shield that diffuses personal accountability in situations. There's pros and cons to this.

I would love to see a typical CEO not live off of the efforts of his collective and actually do some front line work.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

More slight of hand from you, got anymore conservative straw men arguments to put forth?

Individualism: Is the idea that the individual’s life belongs to him and that he has an inalienable right to live it as he sees fit, to act on his own judgment, to keep and use the product of his effort, and to pursue the values of his choosing. It’s the idea that the individual is sovereign, an end in himself, and the fundamental unit of moral concern.

It's working out great in Yemen and Somalia etc.

any other examples you want to add on.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

It's a hard comparison to make. It's essentially an apples to oranges comparison because each nation has different underlying circumstances to deal with.

It's hard to take a small country like Denmark and compare it to a giant country like the USA.

Okay, but you claimed that all socialist countries fail. I posted something that demonstrated that they are in fact succeeding and punching well above their weight class. So by what measures then do you see that they're failing?

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Considering that most of the people at minimum wage work MUCH harder and keep less of the results of their effort than the people at the top end of the spectrum, yes progressive taxation is fair.

To illustrate the point:
"Trump says he thought being president would be easier than his old life"

People working minimum wage generally do have tough jobs and do work hard. But they also lack qualifications and certain abilities to get better opportunities. There has to be incentive for people to provide innovations that produce these jobs and employ these people. Capitalism isn't a perfect system, but it's the best flawed system that anybody has come up with.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

More slight of hand from you, got anymore conservative straw men arguments to put forth?

Individualism: Is the idea that the individual’s life belongs to him and that he has an inalienable right to live it as he sees fit, to act on his own judgment, to keep and use the product of his effort, and to pursue the values of his choosing. It’s the idea that the individual is sovereign, an end in himself, and the fundamental unit of moral concern.

Collectivism: is the idea that the individual’s life belongs not to him but to the group or society of which he is merely a part, that he has no rights, and that he must sacrifice his values and goals for the group’s “greater good.” According to collectivism, the group or society is the basic unit of moral concern, and the individual is of value only insofar as he serves the group.

It doesn't mean that people don't work together to fulfill their needs mutually. Both ideas try to accomplish the same thing, just one works so much better. I know the idea of voluntarism and the free market are lost on, you want a centrally planned nanny state to tell you how to live.

Originally Posted by Wormius

So why is a publicly-funded military, transportation and infrastructure just super awesome, but healthcare is just a no-go for individualists?

If the American's would slash their military budget to 2% of GDP (they'd still surpass China's spending by >100 bn) they just might find the money to properly fund education and healthcare.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

People working minimum wage generally do have tough jobs and do work hard. But they also lack qualifications and certain abilities to get better opportunities. There has to be incentive for people to provide innovations that produce these jobs and employ these people. Capitalism isn't a perfect system, but it's the best flawed system that anybody has come up with.

eliminate minimum wage, and any taxes on the top 10% earners. that'll fix everything.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

People working minimum wage generally do have tough jobs and do work hard. But they also lack qualifications and certain abilities to get better opportunities.

So individualism allows people to keep what they produce, so long as they meet certain qualifications?

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Okay, but you claimed that all socialist countries fail. I posted something that demonstrated that they are in fact succeeding and punching well above their weight class. So by what measures then do you see that they're failing?

Look at there spending relative to their size. It's not sustainable. Look at how the USSR turned out.

What great innovations come out of Socialist countries? There needs to be incentive.

You posted a measure that doesn't have an equal playing field and doesn't represent the whole picture.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

eliminate minimum wage, and any taxes on the top 10% earners. that'll fix everything.

Your darn right! my least favorite example of "the collective working together" is laborers fighting for the 40 hour work week and minimum safety equipment , what a bunch of commie propaganda that is am I right?

[ResAlien]

So that Japan and EU trade agreement, pretty great huh? Gotta think that's gonna hurt the US in the long run.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by Wormius

So why is a publicly-funded military, transportation and infrastructure just super awesome, but healthcare is just a no-go for individualists?

Hey the military spending is clearly out of control and it shouldn't be like that. Blame the military industrial complex and these lucrative weapons contracts that the government hands out tax payer money to. This is a giant issue but also comes with some economic benefits.

The problem with public healthcare is you are forcing somebody to pay for somebody else's healthcare. It's not voluntary and very costly.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

eliminate minimum wage, and any taxes on the top 10% earners. that'll fix everything.

Minimum wage results in job loss and costs that get passed on to the consumer or business. It doesn't solve anything, it makes things worse. It's already hard enough for small business to compete, if you tax the heck out of them it will make it impossible soon. Here's a thought, why doesn't the government try to spend less instead of raising taxes?