2021 Formula 1 Season

[STeeLy]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

There is no such thing as "more defensible". They either have the power to do something or they do not.

No?


Once the cars that have been lapped gets unlapped, the Safety Car stays out until the lap following the all the cars getting past the lead and safety car, which if I remember right would basically be the end of lap 58.


That is what the regulation states, and if teams are protesting, all FIA has to do is point at the regulation.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Bagor

No there's not. Not even close.

Option 1. Zero cars. Hamilton cruises home with a clear track in front and cars between himself and Max
Option 2. Four cars. What happened.
Option 3. All cars. The race finishes under the safety car with Lewis in P1

1. I think there's actually a decent chance that Max clears all 5 cars by turn 1, as the other drivers want to stay out of things...of course the rule change from 2019 about being unable to overtake until the start/finish line make this a lot more difficult, so if Lewis launches earlier than usual he is probably safe.


3. The call was made to let the 5 cars pass on the 2nd long straight (between turns 8 and 9)...Vettel got through right at turn 9, and the queue had tightened up by turn 10

HAM, (NOR-ALO-OCO-LEC-VET) VER, RIC, STR , SAI, BOT, MSC, TSU, GAS

RIC and STR were right on VER's tail between turns 9&10...they easily could have gotten clear by turn 12 at the latest.

Which leaves MSC as the other lapped runner...he would have only had 4 cars to pass and likely does it by turn 12-13.

As it was, VET was making the final corner (16) as HAM made turn 12...VET made turn 1 as HAM made turn 13.

Both TSU and GAS passed MSC before turn 1. SAI got STR by turn 5; RIC stayed on the tail of the lead fight, so SAI never got close enough to him to require blue flags.


TLDR: Letting all 8 lapped runners past as is convention instead of just the 5 wouldn't have taken more than 2 more corners.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

1. I think there's actually a decent chance that Max clears all 5 cars by turn 1, as the other drivers want to stay out of things...of course the rule change from 2019 about being unable to overtake until the start/finish line make this a lot more difficult, so if Lewis launches earlier than usual he is probably safe.


3. The call was made to let the 5 cars pass on the 2nd long straight (between turns 8 and 9)...Vettel got through right at turn 9, and the queue had tightened up by turn 10

HAM, (NOR-ALO-OCO-LEC-VET) VER, RIC, STR , SAI, BOT, MSC, TSU, GAS

RIC and STR were right on VER's tail between turns 9&10...they easily could have gotten clear by turn 12 at the latest.

Which leaves MSC as the other lapped runner...he would have only had 4 cars to pass and likely does it by turn 12-13.

As it was, VET was making the final corner (16) as HAM made turn 12...VET made turn 1 as HAM made turn 13.

Both TSU and GAS passed MSC before turn 1. SAI got STR by turn 5; RIC stayed on the tail of the lead fight, so SAI never got close enough to him to require blue flags.


TLDR: Letting all 8 lapped runners past as is convention instead of just the 5 wouldn't have taken more than 2 more corners.

Letting all 8 past would have served no purpose.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by STeeLy

I'd say Option 1 is about 50/50 (Maybe 60/40 to Lewis)... There is a chance that those lapped cars get out of Max's way for immediately and Max manages to chases down Lewis, there was potential for a Max dive bomb near the end of the lap to pass Lewis (at which point there is likely a steward investigation if either go off track, which would have made it even more controversial)





More controversial but more defensible per regulations.

Agreed. I fully believe the 5 cars would have pulled over immediately and let max chase down Lewis. I think max catches Lewis at the chicane after the first long straight.

Or, my preference, is a red flag with fresh tires for both and a 5 lap shootout. Oh how glorious that would have been.

I just watched the replay on tsn. I feel disappointed and a feeling of emptiness more than joy. All I can think about is what could have been if Michael Masi didn’t literally make the most egregious decision in F1 history, and it’s a sport with a proud history of scandals.

I hate Masi so much. He poisoned this beautiful season.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by STeeLy

No?


Once the cars that have been lapped gets unlapped, the Safety Car stays out until the lap following the all the cars getting past the lead and safety car, which if I remember right would basically be the end of lap 58.


That is what the regulation states, and if teams are protesting, all FIA has to do is point at the regulation.

What is the intention of that regulation?

Answer: to give the unlapping cars time to catch the back of the crocodile, so they aren't just in the way again in a few laps time. Completely of irrelevant on the last lap or two.

Brundle has mentioned countless times that the decision to unlap cars is at the RD's discretion. It's a pet peeve of his (and mine) that we waste a racing lap to do it. IMO they should just apply 'blue flags' during the safety car period so the lapped runners drop to the back.

[woob]

Apparently Vettel has been team drop back for lapped cars forever. But I read something about the difficulty of getting telemetry sync'd correctly after? I'm too lazy at this exact moment to find that bit of info.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Agreed. I fully believe the 5 cars would have pulled over immediately and let max chase down Lewis. I think max catches Lewis at the chicane after the first long straight.

Or, my preference, is a red flag with fresh tires for both and a 5 lap shootout. Oh how glorious that would have been.

I just watched the replay on tsn. I feel disappointed and a feeling of emptiness more than joy. All I can think about is what could have been if Michael Masi didn’t literally make the most egregious decision in F1 history, and it’s a sport with a proud history of scandals.

I hate Masi so much. He poisoned this beautiful season.

There was no need for a red flag. The track required no repairs, and they got Latifi's car out of the way relatively quickly.

[STeeLy]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

What is the intention of that regulation?

Answer: to give the unlapping cars time to catch the back of the crocodile, so they aren't just in the way again in a few laps time. Completely of irrelevant on the last lap or two.

Brundle has mentioned countless times that the decision to unlap cars is at the RD's discretion. It's a pet peeve of his (and mine) that we waste a racing lap to do it. IMO they should just apply 'blue flags' during the safety car period so the lapped runners drop to the back.

Then why have the regulation in the first place? There is no regulation that says that it doesn't have to be followed in the last 2 laps of the race.


If regulations written in can just be changed arbitrarily by the race director, why even have them at all?


Race director has the discretion to let cars unlap or not, that is in the regulation, but if they don't want to waste a lap to do it, then green flag it with the cars still in between.

[KelVarnsen]

I don't know if Max catches Lewis if the lapped cars are in the way.

Lewis can start really early in that case since no passing before safety car line, while Max has to wait for the lapped cars to move aside after the safety car line.

That probably results in a big enough gap that Max can't overcome. He might get close enough for the dive bomb to end all dive bombs but I doubt it.

--

If they just wanted a final lap under green. Have the lap cars come down the pits but they aren't required to stop unless the red light at end of pits is on. It would have the same result as what happened but maybe less controversy?

--

From the 1994 championship everyone remembers Schumacher taking out Hill which sealed the title for Schumacher.

But the only way Hill was able to get in contention was Schumacher had been DSQ'd twice, and had a two race ban. Hill won those 4 races. Nobody really talks about that.

The FIA f-d up but Max deserved the title just as much as Lewis did. It sucks it happened this way but it's a legit title in my book.

[EldrickOnIce]

Haha
This is what Horner had to say, prior to Sundays race regarding the role the race stewards play

“You can’t just go and pluck something out of the air and say ‘ok that is what we will now apply’ because I think that would make a mockery of the policing of the championship.”

https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-yo...race-stewards/

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by STeeLy

Then why have the regulation in the first place? There is no regulation that says that it doesn't have to be followed in the last 2 laps of the race.


If regulations written in can just be changed arbitrarily by the race director, why even have them at all?


Race director has the discretion to let cars unlap or not, that is in the regulation, but if they don't want to waste a lap to do it, then green flag it with the cars still in between.

The intention of the regulation is the same as blue flags...to keep back markers out of the way.

I've wondered if the lucky dog unlapping was a bit of an olive branch to the backmarker teams who are subject to blue flags...but that doesn't make much sense as blue flags began being 'enforced' in 1995 (as opposed to just informational for the drivers before that), but the unlapping under safety cars didn't start until 2012.

There were a lot of years where the first few laps after a safety car restart were a blue flag bonanza, and often messy.


Here's Vettel on the stupidity of unlapping (and the dangers involved):
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1...77359/4977359/

I don't see why anyone deserves to unlap at all. Safety cars result in winners and losers every time...but every team is planning and thinking about what happens if an SC or VSC. It's motor racing.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

I don't know if Max catches Lewis if the lapped cars are in the way.

Lewis can start really early in that case since no passing before safety car line, while Max has to wait for the lapped cars to move aside after the safety car line.

That probably results in a big enough gap that Max can't overcome. He might get close enough for the dive bomb to end all dive bombs but I doubt it.

--

If they just wanted a final lap under green. Have the lap cars come down the pits but they aren't required to stop unless the red light at end of pits is on. It would have the same result as what happened but maybe less controversy?

--

From the 1994 championship everyone remembers Schumacher taking out Hill which sealed the title for Schumacher.

But the only way Hill was able to get in contention was Schumacher had been DSQ'd twice, and had a two race ban. Hill won those 4 races. Nobody really talks about that.

The FIA f-d up but Max deserved the title just as much as Lewis did. It sucks it happened this way but it's a legit title in my book.

Lewis had way more breaks this season compared to Max - both luck and from rules interpretations.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

TLDR: Letting all 8 lapped runners past as is convention instead of just the 5 wouldn't have taken more than 2 more corners.

And as per the regulations the race would still have finished under the safety car.

[STeeLy]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The intention of the regulation is the same as blue flags...to keep back markers out of the way.

One can deduce the intent of the regulation all they want, it doesn't change the fact that it is in there without another regulation to supersede the original under the circumstances that the original intent is no longer being met. If another regulation needs to apply when the original regulation no longer serves the intent of said regulation, then it should be written in.


What this season has exposed is that there is too much ambiguity and FIA would be wise to clamp down on those.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

There was no need for a red flag. The track required no repairs, and they got Latifi's car out of the way relatively quickly.

Of course, it would be a travesty if the race director contravened the established rules with no precedent…

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Of course, it would be a travesty if the race director contravened the established rules with no precedent…

There were only a bunch of sub optimal decisions for Masi to make.

He chose the lesser evil.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

There were only a bunch of sub optimal decisions for Masi to make.

He chose the lesser evil.

I literally cannot think of a worse way he could’ve handled it.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I literally cannot think of a worse way he could’ve handled it.

All of the other ways would have been worse.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

There were only a bunch of sub optimal decisions for Masi to make.

Agreed.
a) Follow the regulations
b) Create a new arbitrary version of the regulations.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Agreed.
a) Follow the regulations
b) Create a new arbitrary version of the regulations.

False dichotomy.