05-12-2021, 05:38 PM
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#41
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Powerplay Quarterback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree
Question anyone who tells you there are "good guys" and "bad guys" when discussing the Israeli government and Hamas.
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Shocking - A right-wing politician trying to woo far right wackos into a coalition. I'm surprised he didn't call up the Wahhabi Imams (the ones who regularly call Jews monkeys and dogs and should die) or the ask the Iranian FM, who wants people to buy $5 knives to stab the Jews with, for advice.
Yes, there are despicable, backwards, ultra religious people and parties in Israel. Yes, some of them are even Jews (gasp!!)
There happens to be on here in Canada too - go ask Maxime about his party. He might have gotten a seat too, if Canada used a proportional election system.
And, of course, Canada has never had a corrupt PM or politician.
What shouldn't be overlooked is Netanyahu tried to form his coalition and FAILED. The other guys (Lapid & Sa'ar) are close. When the shooting stops, he is likely done - either by opposing coalition or the 5th or 6th (I've lost count) election in 2 years.
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05-12-2021, 05:40 PM
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#42
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Ate 100 Treadmills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree
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Israel's elections had 39 different parties that ran. The fringe parties almost always end up in a coalition with either Likud or whichever party has the most left wing votes.
These parties almost always have abhorrent policies, but we're not looking at some drastic change in the political landscape.
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05-12-2021, 05:51 PM
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#43
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: BELTLINE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree
Question anyone who tells you there are "good guys" and "bad guys" when discussing the Israeli government and Hamas.
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https://www.newsweek.com/prominent-h...gay-sex-432343
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Hamas announced that the man in charge of a number of the group's tunnels used for smuggling and surprise attacks had been executed for moral turpitude, a Hamas term for homosexuality
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Yeah, notorious defender of LGBT rights...Hamas. By all means condemn those remarks by whatever random ass Israeli politician made them but to pretend there's ANY equivalency between the only liberal democracy in the ME and Hamas on these issues is straight up bananas.
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05-12-2021, 06:08 PM
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#44
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: east van
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I feel sorry for any ordinary schmoe Arab or Jew trying to get on with their life, bring up their kids and generally survive, I probably feel more sorry for a Palestinian as their lives are grimly more difficult than most, but as to the 'state of Israel' and 'Hamas' they are both scum and I would have no problem watching the leaders of both sewn into sacks together to tear each other apart with their bare hands, who ever is left alive could then be dropped into the nearest lake, there is nothing better or worse about either, they are both morally bankrupt and deserve nothing but contempt
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05-12-2021, 06:34 PM
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#46
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Participant  |
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiracSpike
https://www.newsweek.com/prominent-h...gay-sex-432343
Yeah, notorious defender of LGBT rights...Hamas. By all means condemn those remarks by whatever random ass Israeli politician made them but to pretend there's ANY equivalency between the only liberal democracy in the ME and Hamas on these issues is straight up bananas.
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Who said Hamas is a defender of LGBTQ rights? That’s a pretty dumb straw man.
Here’s a fun exercise. Try to defend the actions of Israeli government and their leaders that specifically target Palestinian people, without mentioning someone worse.
You down with war crimes? Bombing civilians is ok with you under certain conditions? Cool to kick people out of their homes and restrict the rights of innocent people you’re occupying? If these things are ok with you, then by all means, defend them. If you’re not, stop bringing up someone worse like it matters.
Nobody is defending terrorists. But a few of you seem very comfortable defending violent apartheid and war crimes. Odd take, honestly.
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05-12-2021, 06:52 PM
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#47
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Ate 100 Treadmills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski
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This is most likely in the city of Lod. It's a mixed town of mostly Arabs and Jewish refugees from Arab countries. It's descending into chaos with mobs on both sides.
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05-12-2021, 06:53 PM
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#48
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Ate 100 Treadmills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree
Who said Hamas is a defender of LGBTQ rights? That’s a pretty dumb straw man.
Here’s a fun exercise. Try to defend the actions of Israeli government and their leaders that specifically target Palestinian people, without mentioning someone worse.
You down with war crimes? Bombing civilians is ok with you under certain conditions? Cool to kick people out of their homes and restrict the rights of innocent people you’re occupying? If these things are ok with you, then by all means, defend them. If you’re not, stop bringing up someone worse like it matters.
Nobody is defending terrorists. But a few of you seem very comfortable defending violent apartheid and war crimes. Odd take, honestly.
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It is interesting that you type cast so israelis based on the views of a few fringe parties. Yet Hamas, which won a majority election, doesn't represent Palestinian views in any way.
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05-12-2021, 06:59 PM
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#49
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree
Who said Hamas is a defender of LGBTQ rights? That’s a pretty dumb straw man.
Here’s a fun exercise. Try to defend the actions of Israeli government and their leaders that specifically target Palestinian people, without mentioning someone worse.
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Well, you did just say, earlier in this thread, that the government of Israel is worse than Hamas, so him comparing them to Hamas is, by your own admission, not comparing them to someone worse! Hoisted by your own petard!
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
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05-12-2021, 07:03 PM
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#50
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#1 Goaltender
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Last edited by Jeff Lebowski; 05-12-2021 at 07:05 PM.
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05-12-2021, 07:17 PM
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#52
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Powerplay Quarterback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Slinger
I don't know the answer to this but it seems to me a good place to start would be to make the Settlements illegal and hand over control of Gaza and probably the West Bank to the UN (or some more effective equivalent). They may want to consider even making Jerusalem and independent city-state with a representative democracy.
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Perhaps no one should live there. Just make it a huge, open-air historical museum.
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05-12-2021, 07:21 PM
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#53
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Powerplay Quarterback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleeding Red
On #2 - I think we would be closer to peace if not for Rabin's Assassination. It's interesting that all Israel's peace deals were signed by so-called Hawks - Begin, Rabin, Netanyahu. Rabin would have been able to control Sharon and prevent him for ascending the Temple Mount and giving Arafat a reason to start the second intifada.
On #1 - I think Arafat was never interested in peace. Ending the conflict would have ended his reason d'etre. I always recall an event where I heard Bill Clinton speak. He felt after all the back and forth that he had a deal, he told Arafat it was a great deal. Arafat left negotiations without so much as a no thank you or good-bye. He blames Arafat for the Camp David failure.
Maybe Arafat knew that if he ever agreed to any deal he would suffer the same fate as Sadat & Rabin. hard to make a deal with a target on your back.
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Well, Clinton also said, in regards to Netanyahu, “That son-of-a-bitch doesn't want a deal," and former White House spokesman Joe Lockhart called the Israeli prime minister "one of the most obnoxious individuals you're going to come into -- just a liar and a cheat."
Maybe everyone would be better off just acknowledging that those in power don’t want to do anything that would lessen their power.
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05-12-2021, 07:53 PM
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#55
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: east van
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Kissinger's quote on Arafat and the Palestinian cause was that they would never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity, the Palestinians and their cause have been used as a convenient tool by every Muslim regime in the region to bolster support among their populations, they basically pay the leaders of Hamas and the old PLO to be intransigent because it sells well back in the mosque.
It is always going to be difficult to persuade the Palestinian diaspora to willingly give up land that their Grand parents and in many cases their parents farmed, our native population are still rightfully resentful of our theft of their land 150 years ago, the Arab population has only had 50 years or so to get used to it, vast numbers of them remember owning and living in a piece of what is now wholly Jewish Israel, even if they lived in relative comfort that would be difficult to swallow, that they live in abject poverty with no hope for any change for them selves or their children must fill them with utter rage.
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05-12-2021, 07:57 PM
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#56
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Participant |
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
It is interesting that you type cast so israelis based on the views of a few fringe parties. Yet Hamas, which won a majority election, doesn't represent Palestinian views in any way.
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Again, this is a nonsense straw man.
As I’ve said, the victims here are the innocent Israeli and Palestinian people.
Feel free to show where I type cast Israelis or suggested Hamas does not represent Palestinian views.
My point is pretty simple and objective, and maybe that’s why some people feel the need to make up positions to argue against: when looking at the Israeli government and the Hamas terrorist organisation, there are no good guys. There is not a side worth defending for any reasonable person.
As I’ve said, Hamas is a terrorist organisation, and with that comes the reputation of a terrorist organisation (a reputation they live up to). The Israeli government is not, and they are treated as victims and repeatedly painted as blameless or acting in self-defence when they are also aggressors, oppressors, war criminals, etc. They are not victims in any way.
The ONLY victims are innocent Israeli and Palestinian people. Israelis don’t deserve a life where they live in constant threat of violence and bombing from terrorists. Palestinians don’t deserve a life where an occupying power kicks them out of their homes, kills them indiscriminately, and limits their rights. These are the victims. People like to forget. Why? If the ethnicity of the victims was reversed, would people care more?
And of course there are people who aren’t innocent. Israeli people who march through the streets chanting “Death to Arabs” or pull someone out of their car to beat them are disgusting. Just as are the Palestinian people who threw rocks as an Israeli driver and tried to beat him when he crashed. None of it is ok. But the need to excuse some of this stuff is baffling to me.
People only care about war crimes, dead children, and repeated severe human rights violations when it happens to people they like, I guess?
Last edited by PepsiFree; 05-12-2021 at 07:59 PM.
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05-12-2021, 10:03 PM
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#57
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Norm!
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I agree with Pepsi here (I know it sounds weird) we're caught between a reactionary government on one side, that tends to just keep pushing the same buttons over and over again. On the other side we have Hamas which is basically a suicide cult thinly disguised as a political entity that's just as happy if they cause death and injury of their own people as they are in killing and maiming Israeli citizens.
The sad thing is that any solution requires a complete changing of the political powers on both sides and that's not likely to happen. Honestly the situation to me anyways is pretty hopeless.
If there's any region that needs peace enforcement instead of peace keeping its that region.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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05-12-2021, 10:13 PM
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#58
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Franchise Player
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It seems to me, and this is almost certainly an oversimplification but here it is anyway, that the core of the problem is that neither side is actually disincentivized to kill innocent people on the other side. There's only political upside to it.
Hamas indiscriminately fires its rockets with a goal of random slaughter, which provokes an inevitable response from the Israeli government, who absolutely must retaliate in order to appease the people who keep them in power. That inevitable retaliation, of course, is the true goal of the initial attacks that provoked it, because more dead people in Gaza is only good news for Hamas - it just increases their influence. So why would either side stop doing what it's doing?
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
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05-12-2021, 10:28 PM
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#59
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: east van
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague
It seems to me, and this is almost certainly an oversimplification but here it is anyway, that the core of the problem is that neither side is actually disincentivized to kill innocent people on the other side. There's only political upside to it.
Hamas indiscriminately fires its rockets with a goal of random slaughter, which provokes an inevitable response from the Israeli government, who absolutely must retaliate in order to appease the people who keep them in power. That inevitable retaliation, of course, is the true goal of the initial attacks that provoked it, because more dead people in Gaza is only good news for Hamas - it just increases their influence. So why would either side stop doing what it's doing?
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The effects of the conflict have also caused more moderate arabs and jews to leave, which of course makes a peaceful solution more difficult
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05-12-2021, 10:37 PM
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#60
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague
It seems to me, and this is almost certainly an oversimplification but here it is anyway, that the core of the problem is that neither side is actually disincentivized to kill innocent people on the other side. There's only political upside to it.
Hamas indiscriminately fires its rockets with a goal of random slaughter, which provokes an inevitable response from the Israeli government, who absolutely must retaliate in order to appease the people who keep them in power. That inevitable retaliation, of course, is the true goal of the initial attacks that provoked it, because more dead people in Gaza is only good news for Hamas - it just increases their influence. So why would either side stop doing what it's doing?
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You have missed the trigger of events: Forced expulsion from their homes by the Israelis under some 'law'
Quote:
Calling the catalyst of all this a "real estate dispute" is a particularly noxious way to diminish what's actually occurring: Nahalat Shimon, a U.S.-based settler organization, is trying to have Palestinians who have lived in the neighborhood since 1956 evicted. Once they are evicted, the property — occupied by Israel along with the rest of east Jerusalem since 1967 — would then be turned over to Jewish settlers under Israeli law. The six families who have been fighting to keep their homes since 1982 would get nothing to ease their displacement.
For years, the situation in Israel has been painted as a war of survival, the Israelis against the Palestinians and, by proxy, their Arab neighbors. That no longer reflects the realities on the ground, where the ability of one side to harm the other is in no way balanced. This "real-estate dispute," as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government calls it, is a microcosm of the wildly unbalanced Israeli-Palestinian situation today.
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Quote:
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Many of these evictions, including those in Sheikh Jarrah, are ordered based on petitions from settler organizations that seek to seize the land the homes are built on. These groups have the support of Netanyahu's government, linked as they are to the far-right groups that he needs to retain power.
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Quote:
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But what I'm also saying is that this is not a situation where the two sides are on equal footing. And I don't just mean militarily — as Israeli airstrikes bombard Gaza in response to the rocket attacks — or politically in the Knesset. I mean that under the current system, Israeli and Palestinian civilians aren't granted equal protection under the law. A Palestinian's permit to build a home for his family will never be approved without question; an Israeli citizen will never be told to bulldoze his home because it was built on Palestinian land. The system is broken.
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https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/what-i...id=msd_topgrid
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