[News] With the 66th OA pick Flames select D Adam Fox

[oldschoolcalgary]

Really it depends on the player etc... if the flames put in the time with fox and his folks talking through the contract, if he come to prospect camp, enjoys himself and likes thes cuty, team, and players... then maybe they will feel comfortable with him finishing...

Remember Janko went four years too and signed and the flames were comfortable based on all the conversations leading up to that

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

They should probably just make it similar to RFA rules. Makes no sense that they get to go right to UFA. If you offer your own draft pick the Rookie Maximum contract (think of this as the qualifying offer) then he either has to sign with you or you retain his RFA rights.

A: They're not "UFA's" they still have all the restrictions of an ELC.
B: Essentially you're just demanding that teams get exclusive negotiating rights on all drafted players in perpetuity. That's crazy.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Parallex

A: They're not "UFA's" they still have all the restrictions of an ELC.
B: Essentially you're just demanding that teams get exclusive negotiating rights on all drafted players in perpetuity. That's crazy.

You mean like European players who NHL teams already hold rights for after the draft until they are 27?

This would be the same as that - if the team wants you they hold your rights until 27.

And really if they need to offer you the max rookie contract to keep your rights then I don't see an issue with it, if they are offering you the max rookie contract then you have no reason not to sign with them.

It'd be different if they could choose just to low ball you or not offer you a contract at all. But in my proposal they have to offer you the rookie max in order to keep your rights, and even then you are free to sign somewhere else with the drafting team receiving compensation.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

You mean like European players who NHL teams already hold rights for after the draft until they are 27?

That doesn't happen. A team holds its draft rights to a European player for 4 years, just like College players (it used to be 2 years until Erixon Erixoned things up).

The only time that's extended is if a player goes and plays in the KHL because there is no transfer agreement between the NHL and KHL. Any time spent in the KHL is ignored by the NHL.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by getbak

That doesn't happen. A team holds its draft rights to a European player for 4 years, just like College players (it used to be 2 years until Erixon Erixoned things up).

The only time that's extended is if a player goes and plays in the KHL because there is no transfer agreement between the NHL and KHL. Any time spent in the KHL is ignored by the NHL.

Thanks misunderstood that then - thought it was all Europeans.

Really the other way to solve this whole mess is to allow teams to sign players and then they can still go play in the NCAA.

The NCAA's outdated rules on that are probably what is the easiest to change.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by New Era

Flames depth on defense is something to consider, but if I'm Fox I'm more concerned about opportunity to show I can play, period. The Flames are proud of their "over cook prospects" strategy. I'm sure Fox is aware of it too. I'm also sure that he agency (currently known as advisors) is aware of this and will be telling his client to look at the treatment of the many college players that signed with the Flames of late, like Kenney Morrison and Spencer Foo, just as a couple of examples. It doesn't take a Harvard economist to figure out the difference between earning a minor league salary and earning a NHL salary, and how that money will never be recouped. Opportunity will be a big driver, and the Flames are a team that have a history of not providing opportunity until their hand is forced. I hope Fox signs with the Flames, but because of this loophole, I'm not certain that is going to happen. This is one of the few times where players can control their destiny from the get-go. There is no benefit to the player in not going to free agency.

That Gaudreau guy got zero opportunities too...

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Beninho

That Gaudreau guy got zero opportunities too...

Yeah, that's the comparable that Fox is going to use. I'm sure when Fox leads his team to a national championship and wins the Hobey Baker the Flames will listen to that argument. As it is, Fox isn't in the same league. Instead he should focus on the other college players who signed with the Flames only to languish in the minors. Billy Arnold, Kenny Agostino, Ben Hanowski, Kenney Morrison, John Ramage, and Corban Knight might show a trend in behavior that he would be wise to observe.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by New Era

Billy Arnold, Kenny Agostino, Ben Hanowski, Kenney Morrison, John Ramage, and Corban Knight might show a trend in behavior that he would be wise to observe.

And where did any of those players end up playing in the NHL after they were supposedly mishandled by the Flames and buried in the minors?

Every team has a list of prospects that "didn't get a shot" but that is usually because they actually weren't good enough.

I feel like Agostino is the only one on that list that remotely has an argument of not being giving a deserved shot by the Flames.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

And where did any of those players end up playing in the NHL after they were supposedly mishandled by the Flames and buried in the minors?

Every team has a list of prospects that "didn't get a shot" but that is usually because they actually weren't good enough.

I feel like Agostino is the only one on that list that remotely has an argument of not being giving a deserved shot by the Flames.

The window for a college player is exceptionally small. If you don't get a chance to play right out of school it is very likely you are going to go to the minors, be forgotten, and watch your possible career turn into nothing. If a player ain't a player by time he is 23 or 24, he's a career minor leaguer. Frankly, none of those players got an opportunity because we had stars like Colborne, Jones, Stajan, Galiardi, Westgarth, O'Brien, Butler, etc. to play behind. This is a philosophical thing, but I hate seeing washed up has-beens taking a spot away from a kid that might actually learn and improve. It wasn't like those players were big contributors or leading the team to victory. Opportunity in the Flames organization is always earned, never given... unless you are a useless vet on a one-way contract.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by SebC

The NHL needs to get this loophole closed. Maybe they should've traded that for Olympic participation.

It’s not a loophole. It’s the same as Andy other unsigned drafted player. Except a player drafted out of NCAA has a 4 year signing window vs a junior player has a 2 year signing window before they resented the draft and another 2 year signing window before they’re a free agent.

The only major difference being that the junior player can be signed and left in junior whereas the NCAA player can’t be signed unless they want to terminate their college eligibility.

This is a problem with how the NCAA treats their players. They should be treated just like junior players, but then be subject to the draft after 2 years as well.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yeah, that's the comparable that Fox is going to use. I'm sure when Fox leads his team to a national championship and wins the Hobey Baker the Flames will listen to that argument. As it is, Fox isn't in the same league. Instead he should focus on the other college players who signed with the Flames only to languish in the minors. Billy Arnold, Kenny Agostino, Ben Hanowski, Kenney Morrison, John Ramage, and Corban Knight might show a trend in behavior that he would be wise to observe.

How may of those guys are playing in the NHL? How many of those guys were anywhere good enough to even be given a chance to play in the NHL? Why is it incumbent upon the Flames to give these college players anything other than a chance to prove themselves in the AHL?

The only one who has an argument of being an NHLer is Agostino since he's shown that he can produce at the AHL level. Yet he's bounced around the Blues and now the Bruins organizations with a little more than a handful of games to his name in the NHL.

Some guys just aren't good enough. This has nothing to do with overcooking prospects or not giving them a fair shot. This has everything to do with whether or not they are better than established NHL players. Those names you listed simply are not good enough to be in the league, and that's all there is to it.

If Fox is good enough, he'll be here. Nothing more to be said.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Really the other way to solve this whole mess is to allow teams to sign players and then they can still go play in the NCAA.

The NCAA's outdated rules on that are probably what is the easiest to change.

The NCAA's rules are designed for football and basketball players, and in that context there's a sufficiently good reason for them. They're not going to make a special set of rules for hockey players, and if they did, they'd be letting themselves in for a metric crapload of lawsuits from athletes in other sports.

[Party Elephant]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The NCAA's rules are designed for football and basketball players, and in that context there's a sufficiently good reason for them. They're not going to make a special set of rules for hockey players, and if they did, they'd be letting themselves in for a metric crapload of lawsuits from athletes in other sports.

The rules already are different for hockey players though. They are still allowed to play in the NCAA after being drafted.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Hamilton quarterbacked the Canadian PP at the WJs as well. And he has 6 years and 400 games of NHL experience on top of that.

Fox is a great prospect but the way fans overvalue prospects in relation to actual NHL players, never ceases to amaze me.

And Hamilton got on PP1 for the first time with Flames about one week ago.

(and if Versteeg comes back he'll probably be off of it again)

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by New Era

Flames depth on defense is something to consider, but if I'm Fox I'm more concerned about opportunity to show I can play, period. The Flames are proud of their "over cook prospects" strategy. I'm sure Fox is aware of it too. I'm also sure that he agency (currently known as advisors) is aware of this and will be telling his client to look at the treatment of the many college players that signed with the Flames of late, like Kenney Morrison and Spencer Foo, just as a couple of examples. It doesn't take a Harvard economist to figure out the difference between earning a minor league salary and earning a NHL salary, and how that money will never be recouped. Opportunity will be a big driver, and the Flames are a team that have a history of not providing opportunity until their hand is forced. I hope Fox signs with the Flames, but because of this loophole, I'm not certain that is going to happen. This is one of the few times where players can control their destiny from the get-go. There is no benefit to the player in not going to free agency.

I actually disagree here. There have been lots of prospects that have received an opportunity, especially when they show well. Jankowski was the only one in recent memory that got sent down for a stretch after training camp/preseason that showed really well, and it was only for a stretch. The list of players who have received opportunities is actually pretty exhaustive. I would even say that many players who may not even have deserved a look got one over the last few years.

I just think that based on how good Calgary's defence is, that wouldn't be necessarily the case.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Party Elephant

The rules already are different for hockey players though. They are still allowed to play in the NCAA after being drafted.

So are every other sports athletes. The draft is irrelevant as to whether they can play... it's the contractual status that matters.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yeah, that's the comparable that Fox is going to use. I'm sure when Fox leads his team to a national championship and wins the Hobey Baker the Flames will listen to that argument. As it is, Fox isn't in the same league. Instead he should focus on the other college players who signed with the Flames only to languish in the minors. Billy Arnold, Kenny Agostino, Ben Hanowski, Kenney Morrison, John Ramage, and Corban Knight might show a trend in behavior that he would be wise to observe.

How about Josh Jooris, Garnet Hathaway, or Mark Jankowski?

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Party Elephant

The rules already are different for hockey players though. They are still allowed to play in the NCAA after being drafted.

but i believe that issue lies in the CBA of the NFL, MLB and the NBA, which do not allow 18 year old drafts (NFL and NBA) and MLB only if the player has finished HS and hasn't yet played in college or JC

as far as i know MLB draftees can play in college too, so long as they are drafted before they enroll in college

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

but i believe that issue lies in the CBA of the NFL, MLB and the NBA, which do not allow 18 year old drafts (NFL and NBA) and MLB only if the player has finished HS and hasn't yet played in college or JC

as far as i know MLB draftees can play in college too, so long as they are drafted before they enroll in college

You have a small period of time to sign an MLB draft pick. Once that time is up the player goes back in the draft. Usually if a guy is drafted in the MLB as a college player, he's been drafted previously as a high school guy.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by getbak

How about Josh Jooris, Garnet Hathaway, or Mark Jankowski?

How about them? All of them spent full seasons in the minors. If a guy doesn’t want to come out of college, spend any time in the minors, and wants to get an opportunity right away, the Flames are a bad team to come to.