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Old 02-24-2016, 04:38 PM   #1141
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The point isn't advanced stats, it's that we shouldn't trade Josh Jooris. He might only be a 4th/3rd liner but he's one of the better 4th/3rd liners available. Downgrading the 4th-3rd line is a bad idea. Less of a big deal than Downgrading / Upgrading the 1st/2nd lines but still an element of team construction. He's a guy you offer 1.1M x 3Y to like Byron to lock him down cheapo rather than trade him. Though Byron is better.
If he's one of the best 3rd/4th liners available then why doesn't he play every night? Not sure he's as good as the fancy stats indicate. He's got great skating and competitiveness but his scoring has gone downhill this year.

Based on training camp and how well Hathaway and Grant have played he seems easily replaceable by players on our farm team.
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Old 02-24-2016, 04:41 PM   #1142
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Flames have near term replacements for guys like jooris in the system. If you can trade him for a pick, you take the asset. And then use that asset with others to strength top 9 F, top 4 D or sarting G.
But if the player wants to be here, is willing to take on a contract lesser than his worth, and doesn't have much value in the trade market... why would you want to trade him?

He's young and has a lot of his career left. Maybe somebody from the farm can replace him. Maybe not.

All I know is that he doesn't need replacing.
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Old 02-24-2016, 04:44 PM   #1143
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But if the player wants to be here, is willing to take on a contract lesser than his worth, and doesn't have much value in the trade market... why would you want to trade him?
Well either his trade value is higher than you think or the replacements are more NHL ready to replace him then you think or the report is wrong. Pretty simple.

Who says they're shopping him? They may just be listening to offers for him and trying to sell high if someone wants to overpay.
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Old 02-24-2016, 04:46 PM   #1144
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Well either his trade value is higher than you think or the replacements are more NHL ready to replace him then you think or the report is wrong. Pretty simple.

Who says they're shopping him? They may just be listening to offers for him and trying to sell high if someone wants to overpay.
The way I interpreted Dreger's tweet is that the team is shopping him. I have no problems with the team listening to offers (and they should for all players) but it sure seems that, even if the Flames don't trade Jooris, he won't be back next season.
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Old 02-24-2016, 04:51 PM   #1145
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The way I interpreted Dreger's tweet is that the team is shopping him. I have no problems with the team listening to offers (and they should for all players) but it sure seems that, even if the Flames don't trade Jooris, he won't be back next season.
Doesn't seem sure to me at all. If no one wants to overpay for Jooris they may be very happy to bring him back. I wouldn't assume just because they are willing to move him that they don't like him, that could be a bad assumption.

The trade deadline is a unique opportunity to offload players at inflated prices. The Flames have rarely been pure sellers at the deadline so it makes sense to shop any non-core players to see their value. If someone wants to overpay then you deal these non-essential guys.

Treliving wouldn't be doing his job if he wasn't listening to offers on all non-essential players since we find ourselves one of few sellers in a sellers market.
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Old 02-24-2016, 04:53 PM   #1146
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A lot of time the best offers come on the deadline itself. Most of the deals will happen next Monday.
Usually the biggest trades happen 4 or 5 days before...
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Old 02-24-2016, 04:56 PM   #1147
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If he's one of the best 3rd/4th liners available then why doesn't he play every night? Not sure he's as good as the fancy stats indicate. He's got great skating and competitiveness but his scoring has gone downhill this year.

Based on training camp and how well Hathaway and Grant have played he seems easily replaceable by players on our farm team.
Ok, forget advanced stats. How about simple ones. The NHL's worst PK team best penalty killer sits so Bollig can skate his 7 minutes and contribute nothing. That's Hartley. Sorry if the number of Jooris' scratches isn't something I'll rely on to judge a player
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Old 02-24-2016, 04:59 PM   #1148
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If he's one of the best 3rd/4th liners available then why doesn't he play every night?

So that Brandon Bollig can..uh whatever he's supposed to do and David Jones can be invisible and Joe Colborne.. Yeah.

We've got a lot of dead weight on this roster that plays often. We've got a coach who is coaching ineffective systems that are reflected in the standings as obviously they are in the so-called "advanced" stats.

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Not sure he's as good as the fancy stats indicate. He's got great skating and competitiveness but his scoring has gone downhill this year.
How much scoring do 4th liners produce? Look around the league, nothing Jooris is doing is poor scoring wise. However his possession is the opposite of poor, he's a guy who improves this team, however slight.

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Based on training camp and how well Hathaway and Grant have played he seems easily replaceable by players on our farm team.
Then call them up and make them prove it before trading a guy who improves the on-ice product. As of now they are AHLers and in Grant's case his NHL advanced stats (and eye test) showed a guy who panics in the defensive zone under pressure. Weren't you defending the decision to hold Nakladal out a few weeks ago becayse he was unproven? Same deal, except at Forward we actually have some Bottom 6ers that are quantifiably worth keeping in Ferland, ("#3C Bennett/Backs), Frolik and Jooris. At defense we have four defensemen who have each shown over growing sample sizes they drag the team down, even big time scorer Dennis Wideman so the desire to play Nakladal was amplified by a lack of on-ice success. Here we have a guy who pulls his linemates up, however limited his actual role may be.

TLDR; replacing useful players with minor leaguers is harder than replacing passengers
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:01 PM   #1149
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What do you think of Wideman for Howard at $4 mil cap hit?
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:02 PM   #1150
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What happened to this thread?
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:03 PM   #1151
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Ok, forget advanced stats. How about simple ones. The NHL's worst PK team best penalty killer sits so Bollig can skate his 7 minutes and contribute nothing. That's Hartley. Sorry if the number of Jooris' scratches isn't something I'll rely on to judge a player
I'm not sure if you're referring to last night's game, but I would argue that Bouma and Backlund are the team's best penalty killers. Stajan hasn't really done anything all that well this year. He deserved to sit for a night.

It just sucks that Bollig is even on the roster at all to have an opportunity to make it in the lineup.

And the Flames' PK is bad mostly because the goaltending has failed to provide a league average performance. Some of it is on players and systems, but most of the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of the goaltenders.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:04 PM   #1152
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What do you think of Wideman for Howard at $4 mil cap hit?
Not a big fan of Howard's and don't like his contract. Still get the feeling Reimer will be a Flame, either at the deadline or the summer.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:06 PM   #1153
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What do you think of Wideman for Howard at $4 mil cap hit?
Hell no.

3 more years of his cap hit (5.29) instead of 1 more year of Wideman. Howard is really falling off the map and likely wouldn't be any better than a backup going forward. I do not want to pay a backup that kind of money.

Nope. Nope. Nope.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:09 PM   #1154
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Hell no.

3 more years of his cap hit (5.29) instead of 1 more year of Wideman. Howard is really falling off the map and likely wouldn't be any better than a backup going forward. I do not want to pay a backup that kind of money.

Nope. Nope. Nope.
He mentioned the cap would be reduced to $4M for the flames. Either way a big no to Howard
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:22 PM   #1155
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So that Brandon Bollig can..uh whatever he's supposed to do and David Jones can be invisible and Joe Colborne.. Yeah.
Funny you were praising the Kings and Sutter and yet Bollig is the type of guy who could play on the 4th line for Sutter any day. Some sort of disconnect in your logic there.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:28 PM   #1156
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Funny you were praising the Kings and Sutter and yet Bollig is the type of guy who could play on the 4th line for Sutter any day. Some sort of disconnect in your logic there.
Not so sure about that. Sutter 4th liners can actually skate a little and handle the puck without treating it like a grenade.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:29 PM   #1157
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Yzerman was reported saying he wants to trade Drouin sooner rather than later and he hopes to get something in return that helps their power play.

What about Drouin for Hudler + Poirier?

Tampa gets immediate help on the top 2 lines. With Kucherov sidelined, they are dressing Killorn on the top line and Marchessault on the 2nd line. Both currently produce at 0.5 PPG being surrounded by top players. Despite being injured / not up to par all season, Hudler produces better numbers, and he could easily slot in on the #1 or #2 PP in Tampa. The Flames could retain salary if need be. In addition, they get Poirier, a former 1st round pick, who could fill a LW void in the prospect cupboard with Drouin's departure. Poirier still has lots of time to develop.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:31 PM   #1158
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IDK if the Flames had more quality players elsewhere we might not mind Bollig...he did play 82 games for a cup winner a couple years back
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:32 PM   #1159
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Yzerman was reported saying he wants to trade Drouin sooner rather than later and he hopes to get something in return that helps their power play.

What about Drouin for Hudler + Poirier?

Tampa gets immediate help on the top 2 lines. With Kucherov sidelined, they are dressing Killorn on the top line and Marchessault on the 2nd line. Both currently produce at 0.5 PPG being surrounded by top players. Despite being injured / not up to par all season, Hudler produces better numbers, and he could easily slot in on the #1 or #2 PP in Tampa. The Flames could retain salary if need be. In addition, they get Poirier, a former 1st round pick, who could fill a LW void in the prospect cupboard with Drouin's departure. Poirier still has lots of time to develop.
obvious deal from a flames perspective
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:39 PM   #1160
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Hudler + Poirier feels like a tad too much.

I feel like if its Hudler going the other way then the prospect shouldn't have to be a top tier prospect.

Hudler is pretty much equivalent value of a 1st round pick this year.

I'd probably still do it, but would prefer it was a lesser prospect.
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