[Rumour] LeBrun: Flames have interest in Toffoli (and other RHS top 6 forwards)

[Heavy Jack]

So you want to trade our 2nd D pair including a 22 year old almost 400 games played Dman who is signed to a sweetheart contract while also selling at his lowest point out Allstar LW signed to a cap friendly contract for one of the most expensive wingers in the League and a tire fire UFA.

Breaking it down
Gaudreau + Hanifin for Marner - brutally bad trade

Hamonic for Ceci - both UFA’s one considerably better than the other

Can we stop with the Gaudreau trade talks already?? If we trade him the soonest we will will be this upcoming draft. Trading him now would be madness.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Gaudreau+Hanifin+Hamonic for Marner+Ceci ($ retained on either UFA as necessary)

Who says no?

Helps balance both teams' top 6 forwards. There are quite a few good potential UFA's the same year as Johnny. If TOR wants to go another direction they free up the money to do it.

CGY extends our window, but puts all LD eggs in Kyli and Vali.

No

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Both say no.

I think Toronto starts the car on that trade; Gaudreau is being criminally underrated on these forums and it’s maddening. Scoring is down across the board for this team and it definitely needs addressing but once it’s addressed we could be a force in this division. Can we please stop taking a few steps forward and then giant steps back!! We need to ADD to this forward group, not subtract from our D or places of strength.

Bennett, Jankowski, one of Hamonic/Brodie, Czarnik, Gawdin, 2nd should all be in play and if I’d like to think they could create a couple of packages that would give us some good players in return to take a good crack at a run here.

Bennett + Hamonic for Kapanen

Jankowski + 2nd for Toffoli

Gaudreau - Monahan - Toffoli
Tkachuk - Lindholm - Kapanen
Lucic - Backlund - Mangiapane
Reider - Ryan - Dube

Giordano - Brodie
Hanifin - Andersson
Kylington - Stone
Davidson

Rittich
Talbot

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

I think Toronto starts the car on that trade; Gaudreau is being criminally underrated on these forums and it’s maddening. Scoring is down across the board for this team and it definitely needs addressing but once it’s addressed we could be a force in this division. Can we please stop taking a few steps forward and then giant steps back!! We need to ADD to this forward group, not subtract from our D or places of strength.

Bennett, Jankowski, one of Hamonic/Brodie, Czarnik, Gawdin, 2nd should all be in play and if I’d like to think they could create a couple of packages that would give us some good players in return to take a good crack at a run here.

Bennett + Hamonic for Kapanen

Jankowski + 2nd for Toffoli

Gaudreau - Monahan - Toffoli
Tkachuk - Lindholm - Kapanen
Lucic - Backlund - Mangiapane
Reider - Ryan - Dube

Giordano - Brodie
Hanifin - Andersson
Kylington - Stone
Davidson

Rittich
Talbot

I agree those trades would be good for Calgary, I just assume if they could be done, they would have been done by now.

It’s likely Toronto can get more for Kapanen. As in a d-man with similar cap and term.


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[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

I think Toronto starts the car on that trade; Gaudreau is being criminally underrated on these forums and it’s maddening. Scoring is down across the board for this team and it definitely needs addressing but once it’s addressed we could be a force in this division. Can we please stop taking a few steps forward and then giant steps back!! We need to ADD to this forward group, not subtract from our D or places of strength.

Bennett, Jankowski, one of Hamonic/Brodie, Czarnik, Gawdin, 2nd should all be in play and if I’d like to think they could create a couple of packages that would give us some good players in return to take a good crack at a run here.

Bennett + Hamonic for Kapanen

Jankowski + 2nd for Toffoli

Gaudreau - Monahan - Toffoli
Tkachuk - Lindholm - Kapanen
Lucic - Backlund - Mangiapane
Reider - Ryan - Dube

Giordano - Brodie
Hanifin - Andersson
Kylington - Stone
Davidson

Rittich
Talbot

I didn't say the deal favoured us, Toronto is not moving Marner for anything. They would trade Matthews even before Marner I think. I just think both GMs would say no.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Nope, haven’t said we have to hold on to Bennett.

He’s a player I would consider moving. But I wouldn’t be dumping him for anything like some seem to suggest. He’s an asset, one that should be maximized. Treliving will set the price for him and if anybody meets it it’s perfectly fine to move him.

The hyperbole around how useless he is or how overpaid he is just doesn’t contribute anything to the discussion Imo. That’s my biggest beef with the anti-Bennett crew.

Elliott Friedman has reported that several teams are trying to steal Bennett. Treliving won’t be giving him away.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

Can we please stop taking a few steps forward and then giant steps back!! We need to ADD to this forward group, not subtract from our D or places of strength.

It all boils down to what you think the ceiling for this forward group is. Personally, I think last year was the high water mark. With or without a minor tweak or two, I think they are likely to win between 2-6 playoff games this year, but if the line was set at 3.5, I'd take then under.

If A LOT of things go right, maybe we're competitive well into a conference final. If a few things go wrong, we could also see garbage bags after game 82.


I'm sure there are a lot of far more interesting returns to be had for Gaudreau and/or Hanifin (together or apart), but if people are optimistic about this group, then getting 5.5 years of Gaudreau-level offence with hardly any of his limitations would seem at least a little enticing? The contract isn't great, but it may also be the new normal.

I always look at theoretical trades from the other team's standpoint far moreso than Calgary's. We can remove an LW and LD and those positions will still be 'strong'.

Every team has to gamble on certain things working out. I'm done with gambling on Gaudreau leading this team when it matters. There is simply no evidence that it can happen since his rookie year, but I think it's tough for anyone else to become the "Go to guy" while he's on the roster (Tkachuk has on several occasions, which is a big reason that Johnny is now 'expendable', for lack of a better term). That's not a knock on him - it's exceptionally rare for a winger to do it - Kane and Ovechkin are the only in recent memory.

I think it's reasonable to gamble that Valimaki or Kylington can fill Hanifin's skates in the near term, and that either of them or Andersson might fill Gio's in the long run. It would be nice to have another round in the chamber for that, but this team has to actually be close to contending before it even matters.

Unpopular opinion, but I'm okay with seeing what happens with Bennett/Lucic as middle six LW's in some order. I think it's unlikely for Bennett's value to go much lower than present through another 6-12 months, though keeping him on the 4th line is pointless (but inevitable with the LW logjam). His typical production isn't that far off of a Ferland (especially considering his deployment), and the only thing I'm sure this team can't afford to lose, it's players who GAF.

Whatever comes back for Johnny and/or Hanifin is also a gamble, but I would be a lot more excited to see how it plays out than watching the final chapter of the Flames spring suckfest trilogy.

[blender]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I agree those trades would be good for Calgary, I just assume if they could be done, they would have been done by now.

It’s likely Toronto can get more for Kapanen. As in a d-man with similar cap and term.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Who? Honest question. Who is available in trade right now.
TO wants to be a buyer, and is there a better D man than Brodie on the market right now?
Every team within 4 points of a playoff spot right now is thinking playoff run. Toronto NEEDS a playoff run.
I feel like there is ample opportunity for a trade. Flames hold some very valuable assets.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Nope, haven’t said we have to hold on to Bennett.

He’s a player I would consider moving. But I wouldn’t be dumping him for anything like some seem to suggest. He’s an asset, one that should be maximized. Treliving will set the price for him and if anybody meets it it’s perfectly fine to move him.

The hyperbole around how useless he is or how overpaid he is just doesn’t contribute anything to the discussion Imo. That’s my biggest beef with the anti-Bennett crew.

Elliott Friedman has reported that several teams are trying to steal Bennett. Treliving won’t be giving him away.

Just so I have this right..

Value of his contributions...... and on-ice performance... is not relevant to discussing hockey players and their impact on the team any longer?

Seriously?

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by blender

Who? Honest question. Who is available in trade right now.
TO wants to be a buyer, and is there a better D man than Brodie on the market right now?
Every team within 4 points of a playoff spot right now is thinking playoff run. Toronto NEEDS a playoff run.
I feel like there is ample opportunity for a trade. Flames hold some very valuable assets.

I think a trade is possible, but you have to think TO will look for a dman with term first if its for Kapanen.

[David Struch]

The Leafs probably still want Jankowski & Brodie, Kadri's value can't be that far off from Kapanen.

Toronto would also likely love to get Bennett & Hamonic.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blender

Who? Honest question. Who is available in trade right now.
TO wants to be a buyer, and is there a better D man than Brodie on the market right now?
Every team within 4 points of a playoff spot right now is thinking playoff run. Toronto NEEDS a playoff run.
I feel like there is ample opportunity for a trade. Flames hold some very valuable assets.

Dumba may be on the market, though his cap is way higher than Kapanen so they'd have to make an adjustment. I'm not saying he's better than Brodie, they are very different players. But he's only 25 and locked up at $6M for 3 more years.

If I'm Minnie I'm hanging on to him for their rebuild, but their problem is they have very few assets that are (a) attractive and (b) moveable due to NTCs and NMCs.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Now extrapolate out of that (future "upside") and tell me how it will be anything different than a 3rd line maybe, 4th line likely winger with almost no offensive abilities but who will bang and crash and do some of the board work. Will not be an option on special teams because he simply is not good enough to do so.

All I see and all he has shown thus far is a 10-12 minute a night guy who doesn't do much of anything....literally dozens and dozens just like him all over the NHL and AHL.

If BT can get anything of value for him, it has to be done. He is a super expensive 4th line winger at this point and this club has enough guys not worth their existing contracts that paying someone 2.5 times what a replacement player could command, is asinine.

So in essence what I believe is that BT cannot be worried that Sam is going to "pop" and start producing if he is dealt as there is NOTHING to indicate that will happen. Could it happen? Sure, anything is possible and there are always exceptions to the rule. This team simply cant be concerned about that however.

He hasn't produced and he's having a terrible season. With that I'm fine with people thinking that's that. I totally get it.

However if I was going to hunt down an acquisition, I'd look for a guy like Bennett more often than not on a reclamation project. He has the pedigree, he has a history of elevating his game in big moments and then he has the tease stats that just drive me nuts.

If you look at forwards that have played at least 750 minutes in the last three seasons he is ...

37th in ixG/60

37th! We can argue that the stat is flawed, we can say that Bennett plays a style that racks up underlying stats but not actual scoring chances. But a pretty level headed, impartial attempt to levelize hockey players has him 37th in a stat that should lead to production.

He's 33rd in iSCF/60 ... a driver of the stat above.

He's 35th in iHDCF/60 ... an even tighter measure.

So yeah it may never happen, but there are legitimate measures that suggest more is to come. We saw it in that Edmonton came ten days ago, he could have scored three. He didn't. That may never change, maybe his shot is too beer league to convert.

But he does have some of the measures that suggest getting him on the cheap would be a great move by a rival GM.

[blender]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I think a trade is possible, but you have to think TO will look for a dman with term first if its for Kapanen.

They certainly will. But again, who is that? And if such a player is not available then what next, do nothing?

Not sure if that is an option for the Leafs.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Nope, haven’t said we have to hold on to Bennett.

He’s a player I would consider moving. But I wouldn’t be dumping him for anything like some seem to suggest. He’s an asset, one that should be maximized. Treliving will set the price for him and if anybody meets it it’s perfectly fine to move him.

The hyperbole around how useless he is or how overpaid he is just doesn’t contribute anything to the discussion Imo. That’s my biggest beef with the anti-Bennett crew.

Elliott Friedman has reported that several teams are trying to steal Bennett. Treliving won’t be giving him away.

I'm glad he's hanging up the phone on weak offers for Bennett quite frankly. Hell if we want any decent chance of making noise in the playoffs (assuming we get in) and assuming the trend continues - Bennett will be a big factor. I still want Benny for a playoff run.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

He hasn't produced and he's having a terrible season. With that I'm fine with people thinking that's that. I totally get it.

However if I was going to hunt down an acquisition, I'd look for a guy like Bennett more often than not on a reclamation project. He has the pedigree, he has a history of elevating his game in big moments and then he has the tease stats that just drive me nuts.

If you look at forwards that have played at least 750 minutes in the last three seasons he is ...

37th in ixG/60

37th! We can argue that the stat is flawed, we can say that Bennett plays a style that racks up underlying stats but not actual scoring chances. But a pretty level headed, impartial attempt to levelize hockey players has him 37th in a stat that should lead to production.

He's 33rd in iSCF/60 ... a driver of the stat above.

He's 35th in iHDCF/60 ... an even tighter measure.

So yeah it may never happen, but there are legitimate measures that suggest more is to come. We saw it in that Edmonton came ten days ago, he could have scored three. He didn't. That may never change, maybe his shot is too beer league to convert.

But he does have some of the measures that suggest getting him on the cheap would be a great move by a rival GM.

Now do the rankings of tangible offense.

37th I'm expected goals and # what in actual goals?

Why 750 minutes?

[powderjunkie]

Every team has at least a few players who are "overpaid". Calgary is pretty typical in this regard when you include the buyouts:

Brouwer +1.5
Stone +1.2
Lucic +2
Bennett +1

Around $6 in "bad money" (make it $7M if you want to go crazy you can quibble over a few hundred k for Czarnik and Janko). You could find a similar amount on most teams.

I just don't understand why people twist themselves up in knots getting so angry about Bennett and Janko. They're slightly overpaid and moderately underperforming compared to what we thought they were last year. It's the same as blaming Toby Rieder for your team's failure. It's Embarassing.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Now do the rankings of tangible offense.

37th I'm expected goals and # what in actual goals?

Why 750 minutes?

We all no he isn't producing to those levels, heck I said it the previous post.

Me looking that up would be a complete waste of time. The point (which I'm actually sure you caught) is that there are certain play driving and personal chance statistics that suggest there is more there.

750 is 3 seasons of 250, 250 being the appropriate ice time cross point to get roughly 375 forwards (31x12)

So no ... didn't try and cook the books to make Bennett look better.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Dumba may be on the market, though his cap is way higher than Kapanen so they'd have to make an adjustment. I'm not saying he's better than Brodie, they are very different players. But he's only 25 and locked up at $6M for 3 more years.

If I'm Minnie I'm hanging on to him for their rebuild, but their problem is they have very few assets that are (a) attractive and (b) moveable due to NTCs and NMCs.

Considering TO is so cap crunched they can't even bring in a backup goalie that's not at league minimum, they'd have to do some serious dealing to fit an additional $2M in cap space in.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Considering TO is so cap crunched they can't even bring in a backup goalie that's not at league minimum, they'd have to do some serious dealing to fit an additional $2M in cap space in.

Exactly, that's why it should be a great time to try and take advantage of them while they free up cap space.

You take a good contract like Kapanen and waiver fodder like Ceci and send them one player back. Even it out with picks. They gain cap space, while we get the best player and the worst player in the deal.