The Brain Drain Thread

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I lived in SoCal for a couple of years. Yes you get less house for your money but you live outside 12 months of the year. Our back patio doors were always open and were outside all the time. It was a pretty good lifestyle.

But I hear you, living in California doesn't come without it's issues too.

Like your house being potentially burnt to cinders every other year?

[you&me]

Originally Posted by socalwingfan

I left Calgary in 1999 for Southern California and absolutely love it here. Yeah, it is expensive and traffic can be a bitch, but if i want to surf I put on my wetsuit and I am in the water in 5 minutes. Even with the current political/social issues in this country, my wife and I discussed moving for about 5 minutes until we realized there is no where else we would rather live. Now we don't have kids, so I can understand why those with families would not want to live here

SoCal has always been on my radar, but my wife veto'd that idea - she flat out just doesn't want to raise our kids in the US.

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone that has moved with kids. Was it difficult for them? Are there things to make it easier? Things you'd do differently?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by you&me

SoCal has always been on my radar, but my wife veto'd that idea - she flat out just doesn't want to raise our kids in the US.

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone that has moved with kids. Was it difficult for them? Are there things to make it easier? Things you'd do differently?

I moved about half a dozen times as a kid/teen. There's no perfect way to do it.

Are you going city to town? Major city to mid size city? etc etc. That's a huge factor IMO.

Mid school year was harder on studies, but made making friends easier. I don't think moving at transition grades makes any difference, despite people telling me multiple times it would. By that I mean moving in a year when other kids are changing schools, like from elementary to Jr High or Jr High to HS. Even in a big city, there will still be cliques from previous schools.

Sports or other activities helps. I played hockey so that was an easy way to meet people.

Location is so important IMO. But that's a tough one to gauge without knowing where the other kids live.

Once I moved to an area where four or five classmates were walking distance, that was awesome. Another time it felt like I was the only kid in my entire neighborhood that went to my school, that sucked because it made getting around hard.

Obviously a smaller city/town will make it easier because your kids may be able to walk/bike to friend's houses. In the city I had to take an hour long bus ride to see my friends, or wait until I was old enough to drive.

School and growing up can be hard enough without moving all the time and having to make new friends. This is especially true in a small town where many of the kids will have known each other all their lives.

I'll also add that the type of personality your kid has may matter. When I moved to a small redneck conservative alberta town and I was into heavy music, hip hop and designer clothes, I was shocked to learn all my classmates were these ultra conservative hillbillies who thought I was a devil worshipper and dressed like a loser because I didn't wear cowboy boots and wranglers with plaid shirts all the time. That was tough. The small town also had no movie theatre. Not that it mattered, all the kids my age just wanted to watch 8 Seconds over and over. We had different tastes in pretty much everything from TV shows to music to clothes etc. Thankfully I had sports or I'd have killed myself.

When I got older and moved, I got to at least have my input as to where we lived so that I could go to the school of my choice, and thank god because that turned out great for my education. Minus the fact no kids from my school lived in my community.


Sorry that post is all over the place. I guess I'd say it is hard to answer without more info about where you live now, where you're moving to, how old your kids are, what they like and what kind of personality and interests they have.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Jbo

I love this city and this province. I've travelled all over the world, and this has always felt like home.

Unfortunately, it feels like many people would rather bolt, then work to get this province back to where we know it is capable of. I'm not talking about waiting for a turn in commodity prices and a return to the "Boom" times either.

We continue to have the youngest demographics in the country, are well educated, and Calgary is still considered one of the most livable cities in the world. I also truly believe we have the hardest working population in the country. (Roll up the sleeves types). I've weighed living in Victoria, Kelowna, Vancouver and TO and in all cases after extensive research have stayed put.

I do hate the whiplash between NDP and UCP. Would love to see a government right in between both parties.

I'm not discouraging anyone from moving, times are tough and if you need work, you have to do what you need to. Just hate to see this city where it is today.

Yeah thats the AB NDP. A centrist government that was labelled by rebel media and the Sun as ultra left commies. Sorry to derail but this is such a BS narrative. Carry on.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by you&me

SoCal has always been on my radar, but my wife veto'd that idea - she flat out just doesn't want to raise our kids in the US.

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone that has moved with kids. Was it difficult for them? Are there things to make it easier? Things you'd do differently?

Raising in kids in Socal wasn't an issue for us. I think it's a great place and honestly Socal is kinda "sheltered" from the rest of the US. It's progressive for the most part.

I just realized over time it's MUCH easier to have kids with either my parents or my wife's parents close by, so we left and went to Calgary. I miss CA a lot, but it was the right choice to move back for us. We've come to realize the most important thing (other than finding work of course) is having friends and family nearby.

So my priority list when looking for a place to live:

1. Job
2. Friends & Family
3. Nice weather.

[Ozy_Flame]

I don't like quoting the Calgary Sun, but the last bit of this article is poignant of the potential Brain Drain in Alberta - not just physicians:

A fresh wave of layoffs is pushing Albertans to the edge — and in danger of losing their homes

As the downturn in Alberta’s energy sector has dragged on, professionals have become more open to permanently leaving the oil and gas business, accepting lower paying jobs in other industries, further weakening the province’s housing market.

Now, she said, a growing number of her clients are also looking to permanently leave Alberta as they look for work, potentially causing a “brain drain” in Alberta. Net migration into the province dropped a staggering 116.8 per cent by the second quarter, compared to the same period last year.

“We’re seeing this domino effect that’s going to impact the job market. You’re going to see more people leaving Calgary. I think it’s going to apply to younger people and younger professionals, too.”

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I moved about half a dozen times as a kid/teen. There's no perfect way to do it.

Are you going city to town? Major city to mid size city? etc etc. That's a huge factor IMO.

Mid school year was harder on studies, but made making friends easier. I don't think moving at transition grades makes any difference, despite people telling me multiple times it would. By that I mean moving in a year when other kids are changing schools, like from elementary to Jr High or Jr High to HS. Even in a big city, there will still be cliques from previous schools.

Sports or other activities helps. I played hockey so that was an easy way to meet people.

Location is so important IMO. But that's a tough one to gauge without knowing where the other kids live.

Once I moved to an area where four or five classmates were walking distance, that was awesome. Another time it felt like I was the only kid in my entire neighborhood that went to my school, that sucked because it made getting around hard.

Obviously a smaller city/town will make it easier because your kids may be able to walk/bike to friend's houses. In the city I had to take an hour long bus ride to see my friends, or wait until I was old enough to drive.

School and growing up can be hard enough without moving all the time and having to make new friends. This is especially true in a small town where many of the kids will have known each other all their lives.

I'll also add that the type of personality your kid has may matter. When I moved to a small redneck conservative alberta town and I was into heavy music, hip hop and designer clothes, I was shocked to learn all my classmates were these ultra conservative hillbillies who thought I was a devil worshipper and dressed like a loser because I didn't wear cowboy boots and wranglers with plaid shirts all the time. That was tough. The small town also had no movie theatre. Not that it mattered, all the kids my age just wanted to watch 8 Seconds over and over. We had different tastes in pretty much everything from TV shows to music to clothes etc. Thankfully I had sports or I'd have killed myself.

When I got older and moved, I got to at least have my input as to where we lived so that I could go to the school of my choice, and thank god because that turned out great for my education. Minus the fact no kids from my school lived in my community.


Sorry that post is all over the place. I guess I'd say it is hard to answer without more info about where you live now, where you're moving to, how old your kids are, what they like and what kind of personality and interests they have.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I realize everyone's situation and their children's needs are different and there's never going to be a "best" solution.

If we are to leave Calgary, it would most likely be to Toronto (proper), or maybe (longshot) Victoria, so another city in either case and nothing drastically different lifestyle-wise.

Our thinking is that sooner than later is probably best in order to minimize disrupting the kids before they become more entrenched in their schooling, friend groups, activities, etc. For instance, our oldest is 8 and she's into dance and other normal 8yo girl things, but nothing too serious yet (last year's competitions were cancelled due to Covid, etc). We have younger children as well with our youngest not yet in school, so there's really nothing to disrupt there, but of course that will change in the coming years.

I was born and raised here and never moved after I started school, so this is something I can't relate to. My wife moved here from Toronto as a teenager, so she has a better understanding. I just want to hear from the CP braintrust to fully inform my decsion.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

It was definitely easier when we were younger. I hardly remember any issues with school and friends moving at age 5 and then again at 8. But I definitely remember leaving all my friends when I moved at 15/16, prior to the start of grade 10.

[bizkitgto]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I don't like quoting the Calgary Sun, but the last bit of this article is poignant of the potential Brain Drain in Alberta - not just physicians:

A fresh wave of layoffs is pushing Albertans to the edge — and in danger of losing their homes

As the downturn in Alberta’s energy sector has dragged on, professionals have become more open to permanently leaving the oil and gas business, accepting lower paying jobs in other industries, further weakening the province’s housing market.

Now, she said, a growing number of her clients are also looking to permanently leave Alberta as they look for work, potentially causing a “brain drain” in Alberta. Net migration into the province dropped a staggering 116.8 per cent by the second quarter, compared to the same period last year.

“We’re seeing this domino effect that’s going to impact the job market. You’re going to see more people leaving Calgary. I think it’s going to apply to younger people and younger professionals, too.”

Does this actually surprise anyone? It's pretty clear that not only the Canadian government is trying to put a stop to oil and gas development, but also governments all over the world. Finance in the industry will be limited going forward thanks to things like ESG, pressure from the UN and every other group out there... and also the World Economic Forum touting the "Great Reset".... oil and gas won't win this fight, and Alberta will slowly fade from prominence as the government slows down the industry to operate like a utility, with little to no growth. The writing is on the wall.

[mrkajz44]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I don't like quoting the Calgary Sun, but the last bit of this article is poignant of the potential Brain Drain in Alberta - not just physicians:

A fresh wave of layoffs is pushing Albertans to the edge — and in danger of losing their homes

As the downturn in Alberta’s energy sector has dragged on, professionals have become more open to permanently leaving the oil and gas business, accepting lower paying jobs in other industries, further weakening the province’s housing market.

Now, she said, a growing number of her clients are also looking to permanently leave Alberta as they look for work, potentially causing a “brain drain” in Alberta. Net migration into the province dropped a staggering 116.8 per cent by the second quarter, compared to the same period last year.

“We’re seeing this domino effect that’s going to impact the job market. You’re going to see more people leaving Calgary. I think it’s going to apply to younger people and younger professionals, too.”

Originally Posted by bizkitgto

Does this actually surprise anyone? It's pretty clear that not only the Canadian government is trying to put a stop to oil and gas development, but also governments all over the world. Finance in the industry will be limited going forward thanks to things like ESG, pressure from the UN and every other group out there... and also the World Economic Forum touting the "Great Reset".... oil and gas won't win this fight, and Alberta will slowly fade from prominence as the government slows down the industry to operate like a utility, with little to no growth. The writing is on the wall.

Honestly, there seems to consistently be this alarmist view in these forums, that Alberta and Calgary and one this downhill slide, but the numbers don't really back this up. Net migration to Alberta has been on the rise since mid 2016 and Q2 20202 was the first real big fall off. With COVID, it's really hard to read Q2 2020 numbers and compare them to anything without wondering how much COVID impacted those numbers. The fact of the matter is there is no brain drain going on in Alberta. Even in the "down" years of 2014-2016, more people were coming to Alberta than leaving it.

https://economicdashboard.alberta.ca...ration#alberta

[Table 5]

Perhaps it's less of a brain drain, and more like a brain transplant. Some brains going out, some new brains coming in. A big brain shuffle. Zombies take note.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

Honestly, there seems to consistently be this alarmist view in these forums, that Alberta and Calgary and one this downhill slide, but the numbers don't really back this up. Net migration to Alberta has been on the rise since mid 2016 and Q2 20202 was the first real big fall off. With COVID, it's really hard to read Q2 2020 numbers and compare them to anything without wondering how much COVID impacted those numbers. The fact of the matter is there is no brain drain going on in Alberta. Even in the "down" years of 2014-2016, more people were coming to Alberta than leaving it.

https://economicdashboard.alberta.ca...ration#alberta

If you look into what's behind that trend line, it's pretty clear that what's supporting the positive trend line is international migration into Alberta while interprovincial migration has actually been mostly negative since 2017. Lots of people are entering Alberta for immigration purposes, but people who have already been living in Alberta are leaving.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by you&me

SoCal has always been on my radar, but my wife veto'd that idea - she flat out just doesn't want to raise our kids in the US.

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone that has moved with kids. Was it difficult for them? Are there things to make it easier? Things you'd do differently?

I moved around a bunch when I was a kid - between kindergarten and grade 7, I attended five schools.

In my experience, that’s not ideal. Especially if your kids don’t make friends easily.

If possible, try and schedule a major move to coincide with a time when they’d be changing schools and going into a new environment anyway - grade 7, grade 10, times when they’re all going to be ‘new’ to one degree or another.

If you do move around regularly, be prepared for it to negatively impact your kids academic performance in the short term - the first year in particular. Go easy on them.

Moving to different cities is an adventure in every sense of the word. I’m glad I got to live as many places as I have, but there’s no denying it made things more difficult.

[mrkajz44]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

If you look into what's behind that trend line, it's pretty clear that what's supporting the positive trend line is international migration into Alberta while interprovincial migration has actually been mostly negative since 2017. Lots of people are entering Alberta for immigration purposes, but people who have already been living in Alberta are leaving.

I'll admit I didn't see that in the data I was looking at, but does that make a big difference? Is this not even a good thing? Alberta is drawing in international people, but those people are still staying in Canada if they leave Alberta. I fail to see how that is a bad thing overall.

I still stand by the fact that Alberta continues to draw in more people than those who want to leave regardless of origin or destination. There is no brain drain happening.

[bizkitgto]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

I'll admit I didn't see that in the data I was looking at, but does that make a big difference? Is this not even a good thing? Alberta is drawing in international people, but those people are still staying in Canada if they leave Alberta. I fail to see how that is a bad thing overall.

I still stand by the fact that Alberta continues to draw in more people than those who want to leave regardless of origin or destination. There is no brain drain happening.

I see it as people who have been living here are leaving because they see the writing on the wall and are bailing (you can't deny the layoffs haven't really stopped since 2015).... I'd expect the recent immigrants to leave (if they can) to live closer to their family in bigger cities like TO or Montreal.

[Ozy_Flame]

Do we count the TFW program? Because if we do, Jason just halted that program yesterday.

The numbers are going to look much worse.

[Locke]

Well its not like anyone is flat out telling people to move to BC until the economy improves.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I moved around a bunch when I was a kid - between kindergarten and grade 7, I attended five schools.

In my experience, that’s not ideal. Especially if your kids don’t make friends easily.

If possible, try and schedule a major move to coincide with a time when they’d be changing schools and going into a new environment anyway - grade 7, grade 10, times when they’re all going to be ‘new’ to one degree or another.

If you do move around regularly, be prepared for it to negatively impact your kids academic performance in the short term - the first year in particular. Go easy on them.

Moving to different cities is an adventure in every sense of the word. I’m glad I got to live as many places as I have, but there’s no denying it made things more difficult.

I have no intention to turn moving into a regularity and this is 100% driven by choice. Not that we've even made up our minds yet, but I suppose that's why I'm trying to be extra considerate of the effects on the kids... I'd hate to cause any issues just 'cause "mommy and daddy thought it would be nice to live in Toronto"

[troutman]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

I still stand by the fact that Alberta continues to draw in more people than those who want to leave regardless of origin or destination. There is no brain drain happening.

It depends on the qualifications/education/talent of people leaving compared to those arriving. Also, though many immigrants may have excellent credentials in their home country, they may not be recognized in Alberta.

If educated professionals are leaving Alberta for other provinces, and many immigrants that arrive are working minimum wage jobs, there is a brain drain, even though net migration is positive.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by you&me

I have no intention to turn moving into a regularity and this is 100% driven by choice. Not that we've even made up our minds yet, but I suppose that's why I'm trying to be extra considerate of the effects on the kids... I'd hate to cause any issues just 'cause "mommy and daddy thought it would be nice to live in Toronto"

How old are your kids? Are they at risk of becoming Leaf fans?