Flames attendance at the dome...

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by fuffalo

Admittedly my life is different than it was when I used to go to as many games as possible, but you would think I'm in the perfect demographic for the flames. Mid 30s dad who makes decent money (I'm no CP average, but I do ok).

I just can't bring myself to dropping hundreds of dollars on a 2.5 hour event. Let's say the three of us go, that's ~250 for seats, ~40 food, ~20 beer, ~10 parking, 320 dollars and it's a 50/50 chance that the game isn't fun. The closest I come to spending that amount on other forms of entertainment is a live show at the theater, but for that I have a pretty good idea it's going to be entertaining based on reviews.

I dunno. I'm stuck between believing my own argument and just thinking I'm becoming a grumpy old man.

I dont have kids. But I 100% think this is part of the problem of attendance declines. Families can't justify the costs, so they dont go. Kids don't get exposed and don't build emotional bonds with their teams. Then when these kids grow up and can afford tickets, they have no want for them because they have no emotional bond with the team.

If you go back, ticket inflation went crazy from the mid-1990s onward. If you're 8 years old in 1997, you're 28 today. In other words, they're at an age where they could be spending on tickets. But a lot of them aren't. I honestly think this is a problem, and its going to get worse the longer it goes because the league becomes more and more dependant on older fans and isn't making connections with newer ones.

It also explains the ####ty atmosphere. Lets face it - the fans in their 20s and 30s who get rowdy drive a huge part of the fan experience. If they don't want to attend or can't afford to attend, the experience suffers.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

That's a tough sell when the atmosphere is pretty dull at 80% of regular season games.

Not for me. The dome is my Church. It is my favourite building on the planet and I absolutely love walking the concourse. Walking up to the dome and looking at the goalie mask on the outside I get chills as I walk up to the building.

But I'm on Vancouver Island and don't get the opportunity to go to a Flames game very often, so for me, I don't take it for granted.

That said, I am a NFL fan as well and I have been to the Chargers stadium in San Diego to see the Chargers VS Colts and the atmosphere was electric, the game was meh.. I found that I ultimately enjoy the NFL on TV versus in person in every respect except for the atmosphere.

And this is a personal opinion and what matters to me and what I consider when purchasing a sporting event ticket. How you view the atmosphere 80% of the time is obviously different than my enjoyment 80% of the time.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

You can't beat the live atmosphere of going to a game. But that's all you can't beat.

From the couch, Beer is better and cheaper and I can drink as much as I want without being worried about a DUI. I can pause the game and then fast forward through stoppages.
Play by play - especially with Ball and Hrudey making the TV experience a ton of fun.

I wonder if and how much VR development for spectating sports will effect ticket sales in the future.

Originally Posted by nfotiu

That's a tough sell when the atmosphere is pretty dull at 80% of regular season games.

Honestly this is it for me.

Harder to justify the cost & time commitment of going to a game when the experience just isn't substantially better at the dome.

Between the tickets, parking, Food+Drink, etc the cost of going to a game is tough to justify, especially on a work day where it likely means you have to eat dinner at the dome too.

Then what has been killing me is that traffic getting out of the dome just seems to be getting worse & worse (especially on the North side of the dome), meaning that it's taking 20-30 minutes just to get out of the parking lot.

I feel like I'm better off just staying at home, watching it in HD, and I'm not losing a ton of atmosphere in my decked out Flames man cave sitting in a comfortable recliner.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

I dont have kids. But I 100% think this is part of the problem of attendance declines. Families can't justify the costs, so they dont go. Kids don't get exposed and don't build emotional bonds with their teams. Then when these kids grow up and can afford tickets, they have no want for them because they have no emotional bond with the team.

If you go back, ticket inflation went crazy from the mid-1990s onward. If you're 8 years old in 1997, you're 28 today. In other words, they're at an age where they could be spending on tickets. But a lot of them aren't. I honestly think this is a problem, and its going to get worse the longer it goes because the league becomes more and more dependant on older fans and isn't making connections with newer ones.

It also explains the ####ty atmosphere. Lets face it - the fans in their 20s and 30s who get rowdy drive a huge part of the fan experience. If they don't want to attend or can't afford to attend, the experience suffers.

Those are all great points. Appealing to kids and younger adults is crucial for the future of a sport's league, and the sport itself. The NHL is failing in that regard, and I think they've done a lousy job in general of putting long term strategic growth ahead of short term profit maximization.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I'm no dinosaur and I know that esports will be a factor in the future.

But I can't subscribe to the idea that esports will outpace traditional sports. 5 million people came out for the Cubs' World Series parade last year. People are still invested in their local sports, and I'll warrant they always will be.

I’m not necessarily saying professional sports will die off completely. What I meant was that if they don’t evolve in a way to entice the younger generation they will cease. Just look at the CFL as an example, it’s an aging league and they desperately need to find a way to attract younger fans or they’ll slowly watch their fanbase dwindle year after year. The Argos are a mess, Vancouver has probably seen a 50% drop in a average attendance from a decade ago and the fall in average attendance league wide is probably on top of their agenda every day.

From experience, I just think the average young person today is more frugal then their parents’ generation. They find more value in stretching their $75 here and there rather than spending it all at once at a hockey game or whatever professional sport league and If you don’t get then when they’re young, it’s a tough hill to climb.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by fuffalo

Let's say the three of us go, that's ~250 for seats, ~40 food, ~20 beer, ~10 parking, 320 dollars ...

Not to pick on you or this post specifically but lets get realistic with the actual costs to go to a Flames game.

- You can get decent second bowl seats for $40-$50 each. Nothing wrong with sitting in the corner of the second bowl.
- You can eat before going to the game. When we went to games as kids we NEVER got food, snacks or drinks at the game because it was so expensive. The Flames aren't forcing anyone to snack all game.
- Beers are now $5 if you show up 30 minutes before the game. Or maybe go without beers at a game. Or grab a liter of cola instead of multiple beers?
- There are tons of free parking options around the dome.

I guess I'd rather go to the game for $50 and not buy any food/snacks than watch it at home on the couch.

And I'm not defending the prices of beer and food (because they're ridiculous) but if you're on a budget you can still enjoy attending games in person.

Also I think the Flames are noticing this trend so they started the whole 'happy hour' thing, which we took advantage of the other night. $8 for a burger and onion rings + $5 for a beer isn't all that unreasonable.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Then what has been killing me is that traffic getting out of the dome just seems to be getting worse & worse (especially on the North side of the dome), meaning that it's taking 20-30 minutes just to get out of the parking lot.

The Dome parking lot is literally the worst place to park. Do not park there ever again.

Park in any of the pay lots around the dome that have quick out access after a game. Or take the train. Or park on the street on 10th or 11th ave (which is free after 6pm BTW). Or park at the casino (for free) and then eat there for cheaper then the dome.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Probably just the economy...but, could also be page 117 of the new arena extortion playbook. Threat to move sounds less hollow when every game isn't sold out. Also helps sell the reduction of seats in a new arena.

It's also an argument against a new (subsidized) arena though. If the market is signalling that Flames hockey no longer has the value it used to, then perhaps supporting Flames hockey would be a poor civic investment.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by rohara66

You can get decent second bowl seats for $40-$50 each. Nothing wrong with sitting in the corner of the second bowl.

The cheapest 2nd bowl seat is $62 + taxes. I know there is a resell market but somebody has to buy those tickets at full price to resell them. It's a broken business model if all your fans are relying on resell tickets to be able to afford going to the game.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by kevman

The cheapest 2nd bowl seat is $62 + taxes. I know there is a resell market but somebody has to buy those tickets at full price to resell them. It's a broken business model if all your fans are relying on resell tickets to be able to afford going to the game.

You have always been able to buy resell tickets for what season tickets holders pay.... which is $40-$50.

[rage2]

Originally Posted by rohara66

You have always been able to buy resell tickets for what season tickets holders pay.... which is $40-$50.

Yea, just have to look at tonight's game prices on ticketmaster. The resale tickets on TM are cheaper than the list price. For resale tickets on TM, they also set a floor price so you can't go lower than that for resale. Many times this year for games I can't attend, they don't sell at all even at the floor price, and I end up selling them elsewhere for lower than that.

My seats as an example, list price of $125. Floor price on TM resale is $84. I end up selling them for $50-60 on other markets, which is below my actual cost. And that's a row 14 center ice seat, so you can find even cheaper in less desirable areas. I've had friends sit at the top of the 200's for $20 a ticket.

If you spend some time searching for tickets, it's actually quite affordable to take a whole family to the game this year. Exception is Leafs game.

[flamesforcup]

Teams lie about sellouts nothing to see here

[krazycanuck]

Sports teams in general have painted themselves into a corner when it comes to prices of tickets. It's not just the Flames, and it's not just hockey. Although MLB tickets remain mostly very approachable (stadium size and number of games has something to do with it).

I grew up very poor, but still I was able to go to 4 or 5 Flames games a year with my dad for literally $5 plus a case of coke (they had ticket coupons on them) each. This would have been around 1997, even with inflation that would only be $7.50 today. 20 years later and those same seats are between $45 - $90 from the Flames (ignoring resale), food is triple the price, parking is triple the price.

In the early 2000's I bought a family pack of seats for $99 for 4 - 200 level tickets, 4 hot dogs, 4 pops and 4 ice creams. Today? They don't offer anything like that. They're more worried about selling premium experiences to people in suits than families who share a bag of twizzlers.

Even playoffs are the same. Round 1 of 2004 I bought sport chek tickets for $30. last year they were charging $120 for those same seats. How many fans were won over by the 2004 run? Even if the Flames went to the finals this year, I don't think it would have the same effect on the fan base.

Prices have gone up so much, so fast that you rarely see kids at games anymore. Kids aren't exposed to sports events at a young age, so when they get older even if they have the money they're not interested. I am a season ticket holder now, but every year I get closer to not renewing.

This is squeezing every last dollar out of your customer. In the short term the numbers look good, but the atmosphere suffers. in 1997 when I was going to games for $5 seeing it live was often the only way to watch the game, not all games were televised. Those that were televised were not watched on 60" HD screens. Now people have better alternatives than ever before to watch hockey outside of an arena. Still the prices are at all time highs and atmosphere is pretty terrible. Something has to give, right?

I think the tide is shifting and 1/2 full rinks will become normal. It will be interesting to see how sports teams and leagues can adjust.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by krazycanuck

Sports teams in general have painted themselves into a corner when it comes to prices of tickets. It's not just the Flames, and it's not just hockey. Although MLB tickets remain mostly very approachable (stadium size and number of games has something to do with it).

I grew up very poor, but still I was able to go to 4 or 5 Flames games a year with my dad for literally $5 plus a case of coke (they had ticket coupons on them) each. This would have been around 1997, even with inflation that would only be $7.50 today. 20 years later and those same seats are between $45 - $90 from the Flames (ignoring resale), food is triple the price, parking is triple the price.

In the early 2000's I bought a family pack of seats for $99 for 4 - 200 level tickets, 4 hot dogs, 4 pops and 4 ice creams. Today? They don't offer anything like that. They're more worried about selling premium experiences to people in suits than families who share a bag of twizzlers.

Even playoffs are the same. Round 1 of 2004 I bought sport chek tickets for $30. last year they were charging $120 for those same seats. How many fans were won over by the 2004 run? Even if the Flames went to the finals this year, I don't think it would have the same effect on the fan base.

Prices have gone up so much, so fast that you rarely see kids at games anymore. Kids aren't exposed to sports events at a young age, so when they get older even if they have the money they're not interested. I am a season ticket holder now, but every year I get closer to not renewing.

This is squeezing every last dollar out of your customer. In the short term the numbers look good, but the atmosphere suffers. in 1997 when I was going to games for $5 seeing it live was often the only way to watch the game, not all games were televised. Those that were televised were not watched on 60" HD screens. Now people have better alternatives than ever before to watch hockey outside of an arena. Still the prices are at all time highs and atmosphere is pretty terrible. Something has to give, right?

I think the tide is shifting and 1/2 full rinks will become normal. It will be interesting to see how sports teams and leagues can adjust.

Or as EldrickonIce called it - Smart economics!!! If you're building is full and fans are happy to pay the prices and see the product and bring future fans, you're not charging enough!! Charge as much as you can in the short term and who gives a **** when there's no next generation of fans, that's next generation Flames problem!

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by kevman

The cheapest 2nd bowl seat is $62 + taxes. I know there is a resell market but somebody has to buy those tickets at full price to resell them. It's a broken business model if all your fans are relying on resell tickets to be able to afford going to the game.

I sell my row 17 green seats for $120 a pair for the games I can't make it to and I almost never have a problem getting rid of them. The Flames rely on the season ticket holders for revenue. The face value tickets are just the gravy for them.

If you want to go for a good price, find someone that has good corner greens and buy from them...

[Corral]

Its no coincidence that profits and prices and labour wars in professional sports escalated when the first of the Baby Boomer generation entered their early to mid 40s and started to spend their increasing amounts of disposable income on entertainment like this.

Now that the last of the Boomers have passed thru their disposable income phase and for the most part watch sports on cable TV - you can almost be sure enterprises like professional sports will retract and decline unless they find new sources of revenue soon. Smart money is no doubt selling short on professional sports right now.

[corporatejay]

Nm

[RM14]

Bleeders were $10 in 90s. And there are still $10 seats in the bleeders on many nights from StubHub.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by rohara66

You have always been able to buy resell tickets for what season tickets holders pay.... which is $40-$50.

Personally I see no change in demand this year, in fact it's really picked up lately as the fans perception of the team changes. It all depends on the teams performance, fans were shocked by the Ducks sweep and how it all went down. They needed to feel some new hope, you could see it in the crowd today.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by rage2

Yea, just have to look at tonight's game prices on ticketmaster. The resale tickets on TM are cheaper than the list price. For resale tickets on TM, they also set a floor price so you can't go lower than that for resale. Many times this year for games I can't attend, they don't sell at all even at the floor price, and I end up selling them elsewhere for lower than that.

My seats as an example, list price of $125. Floor price on TM resale is $84. I end up selling them for $50-60 on other markets, which is below my actual cost. And that's a row 14 center ice seat, so you can find even cheaper in less desirable areas. I've had friends sit at the top of the 200's for $20 a ticket.

If you spend some time searching for tickets, it's actually quite affordable to take a whole family to the game this year. Exception is Leafs game.

For me, the ticket price isn't the turn-off. It's pretty easy to find cheap seats if I'm buying a ticket for myself. The turn-off is the ridiculous food prices. $6 for a single slice of pizza? $7 for a crappy re-named hotdog (Pocket Dawgs are a scam and I can't believe people buy them)? I stopped buying food there. It's just stupid. I eat a big dinner before I leave so I'm not even tempted to spend money there. It's a shame, I actually quite like the nachos, but $7-$9? Nope.