The parents of the Michigan high school shooting suspect are being charged

[Slava]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Of course it was good enough. You’re viewing this with the benefit of hindsight.

Saying the school takes no real action when they bring the parents in for a discussion within 24 hours is ridiculous, to me. And while you say it doesn’t, it only serves to alleviate the responsibility of the parents who bought the gun, treated the situation like a joke, argued against the idea of him being sent home, and did not inform the school they had purchased a gun for him and made no effort to locate the gun prior to the shooting.

There is a reason the parents are being charged and the school is not. The school might have failed by virtue of a school shooting occurring, which is a failure in any sense, but to suggest they took no real action while the parents simply “didn’t do enough” is asinine. That’s a full on favouring of the parents.

First, I’m not suggesting it’s an either/or where the parents should be charged and the school should not be (although I don’t know if the school should be criminally charged, if I were a parent there I’d be naming the school in my civil suit without a shadow of a doubt).

But regarding the flippant “you need to learn not to get caught” line, in some ways that’s a red herring. Obviously, in hindsight, it’s abhorrent. But kids are searching all kinds of garbage online, and I can only assume that when you buy a gun for your kid that them searching for ammo isn’t concerning. I honestly can’t relate to that at all, so I’m just assuming that.

[WinnipegFan]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well the school can suspend a kid for all kinds of things. My son was suspended in grade six for a day and half for swearing! (Which was both hilarious and annoying, but that’s a whole other topic).

The thing is, it’s one thing to say the parents are responsible here because they didn’t do enough. The day before, the kid is searching for ammunition and his teacher catches him and has concerns. Between that and the picture, it’s a significant red flag. But the school takes no real action. They tell the parents and say he needs counselling, and just leave it there. So, let’s say they book an appointment for Dec 2…good enough? If my children were in that school, I’d argue that it was nowhere near good enough!

The school has a pretty obvious duty to ensure the safety of the other students and staff in their facility. It’s pretty obvious that they failed in that duty, despite warning signs they initially saw.

The school can't suspend him for the drawing, he didn't do anything worthy of a suspension. He had clear hallmarks for mental health, but how do you determine when a student is in need of help or a threat? That requires a psychologist/psychiatrist, and you are asking an administrator to make that call on the spot? You need to consider the fall out if a school suspends a kid for mental health needs, just sends them home without parents, and abandons them. Everyone would be up in here claiming the school was negligent, especially if that student harms themselves.

They called the parents the day of and asked them to take him and get counselling within 48 hours. They refused. This is a product of a society that believes schools are the servants of parents, not society in general. The power of schools has been decimated, and parents can push and get what they want. These parents wanted their mentally ill son to stay, so he stays. Then people have the audacity to blame the school, that is just plain wrong. I am sure these are the same people who complain about anything the schools does like, as an example, when they suspend their child for swearing (clearly more context to this story) as above.

So schools keep kids to keep them safe and turn them over to their parents. There was no indicator here that he was an immediate threat to himself or his fellow students. The school didn't know his parents gave him a gun. They didn't know he had one with him. In fact, (not sure about in the states) but these drawings don't even really warrant a locker search. This falls squarely on these parents and for once there is some recourse for the negligent parenting.

This is tragic for a school, and I can only imagine the mental anguish that principal is feeling. They did everything in their power but when it comes to kids, they are ultimately, especially in regards to mental health, at the mercy of the parents. I have worked with hundreds of kids in schools that draw violent pictures, threaten violence, and say ridiculous things for attention. Every time they go home with their parents because that is all we can do, and we suggest (we can't even recommend) counselling.

However, in defence of parents, they have very few resources when this happens. Most of the parents I work with go to the Children's Hospital and are sent home the same day and told the kid can go back to school. So, we start the same dance again the next day.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Azure

Sorry, it looks like they caught him searching for ammo on his phone. I think that should be suspendable, pending further review.



https://www.npr.org/2021/12/03/10611...oxford-charged

It’s the US. A guy like Rittenhouse can carry an assault rifle down the street, and you think the act of simply searching for ammo would warrant punishment?

Might be worth getting up to speed here.

[opendoor]

LOL, no kidding. The equivalent up here would be a high school kid looking at pictures of knives on his phone. If the kid already seems like he has issues, then it warrants some attention (like calling the parents in and recommending counseling), but you can't suspend someone for that, nor should it be the expectation.

[Knightslayer]

From the school? Absolutely it should warrant punishment.

Trying to associate the law and what Rittenhouse was allowed to do and school code of conduct is ridiculous.

[opendoor]

OK, he gets suspended, then what? When his mom's response to the school calling her on Nov 29th about him searching for ammunition is “LOL, I’m not mad, you have to learn not to get caught,” what does that actually solve?

[Yamer]

In a vacuum, I don't know why simply looking up ammunition on your phone would be punishable outside of being distracted in class. I would expect it to be quite common with kids raised in gun culture.

I can think of a few classmates who would probably have done the same had they the tech in the early 2000s.

[GGG]

In general I question why cell phones are allowed outside of lockers in schools in general but that’s a separate issue all together.

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by opendoor

OK, he gets suspended, then what? When his mom's response to the school calling her on Nov 29th about him searching for ammunition is “LOL, I’m not mad, you have to learn not to get caught,” what does that actually solve?

Yeah I agree it really wouldn't have made a difference either way but trying to associate it with Rittenhouse being allowed to carry a gun is a silly argument by pepsifree.

The school was concerned and called the parents so obviously they thought he was doing something wrong. That in itself is a form of punishment.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

Yeah I agree it really wouldn't have made a difference either way but trying to associate it with Rittenhouse being allowed to carry a gun is a silly argument by pepsifree.

The school was concerned and called the parents so obviously they thought he was doing something wrong. That in itself is a form of punishment.

It’s not a silly argument, it’s pointing out the vast difference between our view of guns and gun culture in the US. I know Rittenhouse is a hot button issue, so let’s say it’s the same reason one of the other hundreds of people who open carry weapons at protests in the US.

You not being able to comprehend that difference is not something I can help with.

[Knightslayer]

I'm able to comprehend just fine, you just made a silly comparison.

The law and school code of conduct are different.

It's why Rittenhouse wouldn't have been able to carry that gun onto school property.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by opendoor

OK, he gets suspended, then what? When his mom's response to the school calling her on Nov 29th about him searching for ammunition is “LOL, I’m not mad, you have to learn not to get caught,” what does that actually solve?

The school already said the kid needed to be in counseling within 48 hours.

Surely the school should have the power to suspend a child where they are obviously concerned until further action is taken, like the kid being in counseling within the next 48 hours.

There were dire circumstances, and its strange that people think 'oh there is nothing more the school could have done', when all they literally needed to do is send the kid home based on a recommendation they had already given.

Nothing more was served by keeping him at the school.

[Amethyst]

Yes, I'm sure the parents would have easily taken him home without argument and he would have not returned and done something similar. Schools can only do so much, especially when the parents won't support them.

[Slava]

Well maybe on an island here. I just think if we all (seem to) agree that the parents should’ve taken more action because this was foreseeable, then it follows that the school also should’ve done more because it was also foreseeable for them. Maybe not to that same extent, and liability is far from 50/50, but it’s not zero here in my view.

[Roof-Daddy]

lol you mean they didn't get away?

I thought for sure they were never going to be seen again. Criminal masterminds and all.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Yamer

In a vacuum, I don't know why simply looking up ammunition on your phone would be punishable outside of being distracted in class. I would expect it to be quite common with kids raised in gun culture.

I can think of a few classmates who would probably have done the same had they the tech in the early 2000s.

Sounds like it was more the disturbing notes and drawings, combined with the searching for ammunition, that was the big red flag.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by GGG

In general I question why cell phones are allowed outside of lockers in schools in general but that’s a separate issue all together.

Bingo. Cell phones are a HUGE issue for high school students and schools. My buddy is a high school teacher and the things he’s told me, like, it’s a much different world now than when I was in school.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well maybe on an island here. I just think if we all (seem to) agree that the parents should’ve taken more action because this was foreseeable, then it follows that the school also should’ve done more because it was also foreseeable for them. Maybe not to that same extent, and liability is far from 50/50, but it’s not zero here in my view.

I’m not sure about the schools overall liability or negligence but I definitely do think parents need to be way more accountable than they are. Our society is so ####ed and parents and lack of good parenting is a huge part of it. Also what the other guy said, lack of resources. Way too many parents do not discipline their kid and I’m not talking physical discipline. Kids run the show right now largely in society and it is so ####ed up.

My wife just told me about a young 15 yr old girl with mental health issues and the hospital was trying to discharge her, and the girl started losing her mind having a tantrum screaming obscenities because she wasn’t getting actual help. The hospital refused to give actual treatment. This happened yesterday. Honestly right now the Childrens is a little bit ####ed, if you have a kid try to not let them get injured because there is a huge shortage of resources there, and staff is stressed to the max. Every day my wife gets like 14 calls for various shifts, it’s insane. Also, they are out of funding for families that need it. It’s actually quite desperate I am just waiting for the news article about it.

If you have extra money to donate you should consider the Childrens hospital as there are quite a few families in need.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Azure

The school already said the kid needed to be in counseling within 48 hours.

Surely the school should have the power to suspend a child where they are obviously concerned until further action is taken, like the kid being in counseling within the next 48 hours.

There were dire circumstances, and its strange that people think 'oh there is nothing more the school could have done', when all they literally needed to do is send the kid home based on a recommendation they had already given.

Nothing more was served by keeping him at the school.

Why doesn’t the kid just go back to the school and shoot people while being suspended? I don’t see how suspending him changes anything if the parents suck.

[Azure]

I agree that the parents are primarily responsible, and I hope this leads to more emphasis on holding parents accountable for the actions of their kids, but I still think given the reaction from the school, they could have suspended the student based on their recommendation of counseling, and if there are more concerns, call the cops and report the incident.

It sorta seems like there is a long history here which is why they were obviously clued into that something was going on.

The school still did an admirable job given the circumstances, so maybe this will bring some more awareness to perhaps their inability to suspend the student if they have concerns and not face liability.