If you’re trying to make the point that the protestors don’t have 100% buy in from the citizens, I don’t believe anyone is gong to argue with you. Nor expect that.
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If you’re trying to make the point that the protestors don’t have 100% buy in from the citizens, I don’t believe anyone is gong to argue with you. Nor expect that.
I'm saying the protestors have very little support.
The Extradition Bill was wrong and they were right for protesting. That goal has been achieved.
The protestors are acting overly aggressive and violent towards the police and to any citizen who disagrees with them. Firebombing a police station is inexcusable. They are provoking the police hoping for a violent reaction. In my opinion the police have shown great restraint.
There is a fundamental difference between the protestors and the HK government and police. The protestors aren't an organization. They are not an organized body with a leadership system, systems of control and accountability or titles, roles, responsibilities and lines of report. They are a bunch of people who voluntarily engage in a dynamic movement. They are a spontaneous response to events in the city. Some of what has been done as part of these responses is reprehensible, such as violent attacks and some extreme property damage. That is what some individuals have done. It is how some individuals have responded to events. Those individuals have done some things I strongly disagree with. Still, this the spontaneous response of only some citizens to events in the city, not the controlled activity of an organization with leadership, structures and accountability.
The police and the HK government on the other hand are organized bodies with leadership, specific responsibility for the wellbeing of the city overall and can fairly be held accountable as a group for their actions and responses, or failures to respond. The government first let everyone down, including the police, by leaving the police to deal with a political conflict that they have no tools to resolve. They have continued to allow it to escalate. The police have also been recorded doing many awful things as the situation has gotten worse, seemingly with tacit endorsement of those who are leaders with power and capacity to enforce accountability of those under them. They allow it to get worse and worse, under their watch.
The responses of some citizens become more violent and confrontational, but the failure to find a nonviolent, political solution to what is a political problem can't merely be laid at the feet of a loose collection of individual citizens caught up in a movement. They don't have capacity to deliver the solutions needed to resolve public dissatisfaction. The only entities with capacity to deliver solutions are in government, and they aren't doing so. Instead they are actually participating in escalating the conflict. That is a tragedy for all of HK. The city is being allowed and enabled to descend into chaos by those with a prima facie responsibility for ensuring the opposite.
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
I'm saying the protestors have very little support.
The Extradition Bill was wrong and they were right for protesting. That goal has been achieved.
The protestors are acting overly aggressive and violent towards the police and to any citizen who disagrees with them. Firebombing a police station is inexcusable. They are provoking the police hoping for a violent reaction. In my opinion the police have shown great restraint.
Maybe you should broaden your sources of info. There is not a uniform view of the protests across HK, and there is still a significant amount of support for the movement overall.
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
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There is a fundamental difference between the protestors and the HK government and police. The protestors aren't an organization. They are not an organized body with a leadership system, systems of control and accountability or titles, roles, responsibilities and lines of report. They are a bunch of people who voluntarily engage in a dynamic movement. They are a spontaneous response to events in the city. Some of what has been done as part of these responses is reprehensible, such as violent attacks and some extreme property damage. That is what some individuals have done. It is how some individuals have responded to events. Those individuals have done some things I strongly disagree with. Still, this the spontaneous response of only some citizens to events in the city, not the controlled activity of an organization with leadership, structures and accountability.
The police and the HK government on the other hand are organized bodies with leadership, specific responsibility for the wellbeing of the city overall and can fairly be held accountable as a group for their actions and responses, or failures to respond. The government first let everyone down, including the police, by leaving the police to deal with a political conflict that they have no tools to resolve. They have continued to allow it to escalate. The police have also been recorded doing many awful things as the situation has gotten worse, seemingly with tacit endorsement of those who are leaders with power and capacity to enforce accountability of those under them. They allow it to get worse and worse, under their watch.
The responses of some citizens become more violent and confrontational, but the failure to find a nonviolent, political solution to what is a political problem can't merely be laid at the feet of a loose collection of individual citizens caught up in a movement. They don't have capacity to deliver the solutions needed to resolve public dissatisfaction. The only entities with capacity to deliver solutions are in government, and they aren't doing so. Instead they are actually participating in escalating the conflict. That is a tragedy for all of HK. The city is being allowed and enabled to descend into chaos by those with a prima facie responsibility for ensuring the opposite.
Any movement needs a leader. Any revolution or cause that has produced real change has always had a group of leaders who can control the group to a degree. Leaders who can set out goals and methods. You make it sound like it's a good thing they are disorganized. It's not.
Also you are laying all the responsibility on the HK government because they are an organized body so only they have the ability to resolve the matter. How does the HK government come to an agreement with a group of people with no leader who are basically at this point glorified anarchists?
Seriously I would like to know what you think would be a reasonable way for the HK government to end this?
I didn't say it's a good thing. I just said that's the way it is. In fact, it probably is that way because of how the umbrella movement panned out and how the government handled the movement leaders then.
In terms of response, the government could certainly have made more efforts from an early stage. Really, what is the trade off between allowing independent inquiry into the police or ceasing to refer to protestors as rioters when compared with a recession and the enormous damage done to HK society? Easy trade if the government is truly well intentioned in governance of the city. Relatively minor concessions have not been made to build back public trust.
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
I didn't say it's a good thing. I just said that's the way it is. In fact, it probably is that way because of how the umbrella movement panned out and how the government handled the movement leaders then.
In terms of response, the government could certainly have made more efforts from an early stage. Really, what is the trade off between allowing independent inquiry into the police or ceasing to refer to protestors as rioters when compared with a recession and the enormous damage done to HK society? Easy trade if the government is truly well intentioned in governance of the city. Relatively minor concessions have not been made to build back public trust.
They made quite a big concession. They withdrew the Extradition Bill that started this whole thing.
They withdrew it after the situation had already reached a point where distrust of the police and the government was taking over as the main issue. They also did not make concessions like those I mentioned before that should be easy to do. They have also enabled continual escalation and growing fear and distrust.
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
At the end of the day, this is a horrific situation. But you're dealing with a government that really doesn't give a crap about individual rights and privlidges. You're realistically dealing with a government system that's built around a government defined concept of law and order and structure. And a government that doesn't care all that much about external opinion.
The protestors put themselves into a bad situation when they started doing things like shooting arrows and cops and tossing molotov cocktails, and rushing the police.
I mean seriously, there was no other way this was going to go. The government pulled the extradition law off of the table. That was surprising to me, but I think that was a velvet gloved warning of, we'll do this one thing, you'd better knock it off.
We also have to realize that for the most part the police over there aren't trained the same way that we are here. Its enforcement at all costs, and human rights are defined by what the government defines them as during this situation.
If you look back on Tienanmen Square. it didn't take long for the Chinese Government to send in APC's to smash barracades and send in tanks and the army.
This is now about the police and government putting this thing down with the most brutality possible as a warning to anyone that might think protesting is a good idea.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
China took over a democracy. Wtf did you think was going to happen?
There is no rule of law when the communist party can do whatever they want.
It’s just a question of time to Tiannemen square P2
Square
Kind of bothers me when people talk like the British were any better than the CCP.
Hong Kong was never a democracy under the British.
From wikipedia:
The governor, appointed by the British monarch (on the advice of the Foreign Secretary), exercised the executive branch of the Government of Hong Kong throughout British sovereignty and, with the exception of a brief experiment after World War II, no serious attempt was made to introduce representative government, until the final years of British rule.
Patten the last governor had this to say in 1992. It's not condescending at all.
"People in Hong Kong are perfectly capable of taking a greater share in managing their own affairs in a way that is responsible, mature, restrained, sensible"
At the end of the day, this is a horrific situation. But you're dealing with a government that really doesn't give a crap about individual rights and privlidges. You're realistically dealing with a government system that's built around a government defined concept of law and order and structure. And a government that doesn't care all that much about external opinion.
In dealing with the mainland government, you could say that's true. HK has not been that way though. The reason that HK became a financial centre for Asia and the world is fundamentally that it has had a strong rule of law that could be counted on by international businesses and that made it an ideal entry point to business with China and APAC. That is also what is being killed in HK right now as the the city is being throttled by the mainland.
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Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
We also have to realize that for the most part the police over there aren't trained the same way that we are here. Its enforcement at all costs, and human rights are defined by what the government defines them as during this situation.
I disagree with this, whether in HK or in the mainland. Again, HK's police have had an excellent reputation for a long time as part of HK's very reliable rule of law. What's happening now is the result of being put in an untenable situation of conflict with the public without any actual government support for resolution. Also, there are many indications that the PLA troops are now actively mixed in with the HK police force, so it's very hard to tell what is being done by the HK police and what is being done by members of the PLA.
In the mainland too, the police are also much less enforcement oriented than I would say the police are in North America. The Chinese approach to policing is typically more about smoothing things over, reducing conflict and ending confrontations without any charges laid or enforcement action. Generally, I think this is a good approach and I like it more than what you see in NA, especially compared to policing in the US. It only becomes enforcement oriented when pressure is applied from the top with a specific focus. That's what we're seeing now.
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Originally Posted by savemedrzaius
Patten the last governor had this to say in 1992. It's not condescending at all.
"People in Hong Kong are perfectly capable of taking a greater share in managing their own affairs in a way that is responsible, mature, restrained, sensible"
It is a pretty common narrative inside China that the Chinese people couldn't handle democracy. How do you view that?
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
My cousin lives in Hangzhou and works at Alibaba. Apparently, there is a rumor going around the company that they will start to basically not hire anyone who has graduated from a HK university either this year or for the upcoming few years. I feel bad for the university students who are not involved in anything political but are still tainted by this whole thing because quite frankly they would have had bright futures working for Chinese companies which growing significantly.
