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Old 11-08-2017, 05:32 PM   #21
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https://www.google.ca/amp/business.f...r-jet-deal/amp

Airbus looking to team with Bombardier for a Eurofighter bid to replace the hornets?
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:05 PM   #22
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Let them compete, but with Bombardier's history of cost over runs and failure to deliver.

Even with Airbus, its untrustworthy.

But because its Bombardier, we'll end up paying 300 million per jet and not seeing it until 2100 AD.
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:11 PM   #23
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Let them compete, but with Bombardier's history of cost over runs and failure to deliver.

Even with Airbus, its untrustworthy.

But because its Bombardier, we'll end up paying 300 million per jet and not seeing it until 2100 AD.
But it will be better than a whole squadron of American fighters... from 1962.
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:23 PM   #24
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But not the best choice
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:32 PM   #25
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I know you are a big F35 fan, so can you explain why the Typhoon isn't the best choice?
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:15 PM   #26
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I know you are a big F35 fan, so can you explain why the Typhoon isn't the best choice?
The F-35 has better sensors and inter-operability capabilities with other platforms. Its AN/apg-81 is the most advanced system in the world and is nearly undetectable so it can pinpoint a lot of targets at the same time and be used in concert with other platforms, its also highly frequency agile being able to switch through something like 1000 frequencies a second so its extremely hard to jam it. Plus its unique because its a steerable signal.

Plus whether we like it or not stealth capabilities are the wave of the future, while the Typhoon is already heading down an obsolescence track as more and more countries are investing in generation 4+ and beyond fighters. Its a pure dogfighter but its not stealth, so its more vulnerable especially in air to ground missions then the F-35

The reason why the British have bought F-35's in to work with their typhoons is that the Typhoon is basically going to be a missile truck for the F-35's sensors and scouting and intelligence gathering capabilities.

I think that people fixate on the Typhoon's dog fighting capabilities which are great, but the future now is sneaking into an area, labeling a ground or air target and then being able to inter operate with other planes or assets to destroy it.

Even if the Typhoon could pick up something like the F-35's radar and lock onto it, chances are another F35 without using its radar would kill it from an entirely different direction.

Plus the Eurofighter typhoon has a price per plane of $140 million dollars us, while Lockheed Martin is looking at a $85 to $100 million dollar per plane cost as its production run spools up.

The F-35 is considered a hacker aircraft and its capabilities and in theatre survivability and communications abilities are more in line with what Canada should be buying for a smaller airforce.
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:21 PM   #27
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Thanks, the price tag sticks out as the best argument. I don't really buy the stealth angle though. Aren't they only really stealthy with very few weapons loaded? And isn't most stealth considered to be mostly detectable and obsolete in the near future anyway?

If we are being honest, what types of missions does Canada really need the latest and greatest for? We don't need to be at the leading edge of the battlefront, and in the past 30 years, has their been a mission where stealth would benefit, considering we are mostly bombing countries that have no air force? The F-35 strikes me as an aircraft with a whole lot of "nice to haves" that are probably far beyond what we really need.
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:14 PM   #28
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Thanks, the price tag sticks out as the best argument. I don't really buy the stealth angle though. Aren't they only really stealthy with very few weapons loaded? And isn't most stealth considered to be mostly detectable and obsolete in the near future anyway?
With their weapons bay loaded they're fully stealthy, the biggest problem with a plane like the F-117 is that when they opened their bomb bay doors they had all the stealth of a 10 story building and it took 30 seconds to open and close the door. With the F-35 the door open and close extremely quickly. Add on that. that its more likely that Canada would use the F-35 in stealth mode where it can still carry extremely long range anti-tank and armored weapons. Its unlikely that we would see Canada configure a F-35 in beast mode where the stealth is compromised by external ordinance.

The whole stealth mode defeated argument is up for debate, yet most countries are moving to 4+ stealth platforms.



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If we are being honest, what types of missions does Canada really need the latest and greatest for? We don't need to be at the leading edge of the battlefront, and in the past 30 years, has their been a mission where stealth would benefit, considering we are mostly bombing countries that have no air force? The F-35 strikes me as an aircraft with a whole lot of "nice to haves" that are probably far beyond what we really need.
We are a budget military country with a small airforce that's going to be basically 4 squadrons of active combat planes. Doesn't it make sense to give your planes the most effective platform with the best possibility of survivability, and a maximum kill ability? For that reason alone, Canada should be spending more on less if that's our strategy because we can't afford to cheap out and get less value for our investment.

And we can't sit here and say that we're going to prepare for one kind of war, that's pretty much what fills body bags.

While we talk about fighting countries with no airforces, that's not necessarily true and a lot of these nations are buying things like advanced anti-aircraft missiles.

We also have an obligation to be able to answer requests and requirements for NATO and Norad.

The whole, lets do it on the cheap because it saves money when it comes to military spending really has to change, its what put us into rust out as it is, we should be showing some foresight and strategic thinking. If we're going to buy an airframe to last for 30 years, then buy a airframe that can function for 30 years and be upgraded as the technology comes out. The F-35 can do that, the Typhoon and others can't.

When we bought the CF-18 we had the foresight to do that after buying garbage like the F-5s for example that were obsolete when we got them.
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:12 AM   #29
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With their weapons bay loaded they're fully stealthy, the biggest problem with a plane like the F-117 is that when they opened their bomb bay doors they had all the stealth of a 10 story building and it took 30 seconds to open and close the door. With the F-35 the door open and close extremely quickly. Add on that. that its more likely that Canada would use the F-35 in stealth mode where it can still carry extremely long range anti-tank and armored weapons. Its unlikely that we would see Canada configure a F-35 in beast mode where the stealth is compromised by external ordinance.

The whole stealth mode defeated argument is up for debate, yet most countries are moving to 4+ stealth platforms.





We are a budget military country with a small airforce that's going to be basically 4 squadrons of active combat planes. Doesn't it make sense to give your planes the most effective platform with the best possibility of survivability, and a maximum kill ability? For that reason alone, Canada should be spending more on less if that's our strategy because we can't afford to cheap out and get less value for our investment.

And we can't sit here and say that we're going to prepare for one kind of war, that's pretty much what fills body bags.

While we talk about fighting countries with no airforces, that's not necessarily true and a lot of these nations are buying things like advanced anti-aircraft missiles.

We also have an obligation to be able to answer requests and requirements for NATO and Norad.

The whole, lets do it on the cheap because it saves money when it comes to military spending really has to change, its what put us into rust out as it is, we should be showing some foresight and strategic thinking. If we're going to buy an airframe to last for 30 years, then buy a airframe that can function for 30 years and be upgraded as the technology comes out. The F-35 can do that, the Typhoon and others can't.

When we bought the CF-18 we had the foresight to do that after buying garbage like the F-5s for example that were obsolete when we got them.

I think the Eurofighter is a gorgeous plane and it can certainly hold its own in a dog fight, even against the F22. However, gotta agree with the Captain, the F35 is cheaper, more modern, more general purpose and able to adapt to more situations. It’d be nice if this somehow lit a fire under the governments ass to pick a damn replacement already.
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Old 11-09-2017, 08:36 AM   #30
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The day and age of pure dogfighters I think is going away, tactics and doctrine have changed with the concept of and I don't know the word to use. Sphere's of death and inter-operability.

If a dog fighter has to swarm through multiple attacks while trying to locate a target that shows up as the size of a silver dollar its never going to engage.

If a plane can find and pin down a target and let everyone in theatre know where it is then you don't need planes with huge bomb loads, you need one missile or one hyper accurate bomb.

The term used to describe the F-35 is its an airborne hacker that can act as its own awacs or awacs for everyone else.

I love the look of the Typhoon, and because I grew up with Top Gun and watching airshows, the idea of furballs is somewhat romantic.

But if one plane can pin you down and for example aim the missile for another plane that you don't know is there, all of the dog fighting skills and speed and agility go way.

The F-35 is a generational leap ahead with a lot of really exciting future features including the ability to fire and control multiple drones from a long distance to extend its range.
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Old 11-09-2017, 11:16 AM   #31
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In a dog fight with the F-22 Raptor sure I would give the Typhoon a conditional advantage if it survives the initial turn battle. The F-22's Thrust vectoring system would give it an inside turn advantage for a quick kill. However if the Raptor pilot doesn't get the quick kill and this becomes a speed is life battle, the Typhoon would probably win.

But the Raptor's strategy would be to use low speed thrust vector to turn inside for a gun shot.

The Raptor in the modern age though would basically be able to force the Typhoon to fight to survive to close to dog fighting range, and that's where the difference is between the a Raptor 5 gen and a Typhoon 4 gen.

In terms of sensor systems, the Typhoon has the PIRATE infrared sensors which have a capability to defeat stealth if the Raptor's engines are running hot. However here's the rub. The PIRATE is suppossed to have an effective range of about 100 km's, however due to the Raptors heat sink, that range is expected to reduce to about 60 km's to get a true lock. Meanwhile the Raptors radar and infra red tracking system has an effective range of out to about 200 km's. Its passive tracking system which picks up electronic signals is sensitive to about 200 kms as well. So its likely that the Raptor will see the Typhoon long before the Typhoon sees the Raptor.

Because of that long range system, the Raptor can deploy the Aim-120D which has an effective range of about 180 km's. Which means that the Raptor can pin point and shoot and force the Typhoon into maneuvering long before it can see the Raptor.

They Typhoon is also designed to use either the Aim-120C, the future Meteor. These have far less range then what the Raptor is shooting.
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Old 11-13-2017, 10:29 AM   #32
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Germany looks at going to the F-35 to replace their aging air force

https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...ence-for-f-35/

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COLOGNE, Germany — German Air Force chief Lt. Gen. Karl Muellner has appeared to make a new push for the F-35 fighter jet to replace the country’s aging Tornado aircraft in the mid-2020s.


Speaking at an industry conference in Berlin on Wednesday and in an interview with Reuters that day, Muellner said his service needs a stealthy fifth-generation fighter capable of attacking targets from far away — a description closely resembling the advertised features of Lockheed Martin’s F-35.


The Air Force is known to favor the F-35 over three other contenders — the F-15E, the F-18 and an upgraded Eurofigher — and Muellner previously has been even more explicit about his desire to get the jets, according to experts in Germany.

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Old 11-13-2017, 10:32 AM   #33
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Germany looks at going to the F-35 to replace their aging air force

https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...ence-for-f-35/
I guess Germany will be taking a more active role with NATO including combat missions. Pretty big deviation from their current defence policy.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:15 AM   #34
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A salute to 100 years of Finnish independence

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Old 12-07-2017, 10:59 AM   #35
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Confessions of a US Navy Submarine Officer

Interesting article

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/co...cer-1715113243
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:15 AM   #36
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Israel declares their first operational squadron of F-35's

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017...or-operations/
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:15 AM   #37
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Confessions of a US Navy Submarine Officer

Interesting article

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/co...cer-1715113243
Tin Can under the water for months.


Nope, F that S.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:21 AM   #38
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Tin Can under the water for months.


Nope, F that S.
I had a friend that did Subs in the Canadian Navy, he served on the old Oberon class boats that were the predecessor to the Victoria class, he said that life on a nuke boat was un-imagined luxury compared to what they went through on those boats.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:25 AM   #39
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I had a friend that did Subs in the Canadian Navy, he served on the old Oberon class boats that were the predecessor to the Victoria class, he said that life on a nuke boat was un-imagined luxury compared to what they went through on those boats.
"Life in the US Military is un-imagined luxury compared to life in the Canadian Military."


I would say this is a fair and accurate comment.


At least that is my experience.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:46 PM   #40
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That I would agree with.

I remember people bragging about how great the food was in the field when I was in. And then I did an exercise and they bought in a US Army unit with their whole logistic train, and yeah, The American's treated their guys a lot better in terms of kit, and food and everything else.
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