Let's Talk About: Abortion - Page 2 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Ducay · 05-17-2019, 04:03 PM

That might be so, but with proper education and access to contraception, I would hope abortions continue to become less and less common.

For me, the heartbeat is the line in the sand. Maybe its being a parent that changed my mind? Who knows, but thats my line that I can stomach.

Luckily as a dude I will never have to make that line matter.

rubecube · 05-17-2019, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducay

That might be so, but with proper education and access to contraception, I would hope abortions continue to become less and less common.

For me, the heartbeat is the line in the sand. Maybe its being a parent that changed my mind? Who knows, but thats my line that I can stomach.

Luckily as a dude I will never have to make that line matter.

Okay but you realize the heart is just an organ, right? Like would you draw the line at the first sign of kidney function as well?

TheIronMaiden · 05-17-2019, 04:05 PM

http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/backrounders...-in-canada.pdf

I'll highlight a few things.

In Alberta in 2017 there were 12,706 abortions.

The National total has decreased since 2011 from 108,844 to 94,030.

Based on the total number of 94,030 reported abortions, an estimated 91% are done by 12 weeks.

the estimated percentage of abortions at 21+ weeks is 0.66 percent.

Coach · 05-17-2019, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducay

That might be so, but with proper education and access to contraception, I would hope abortions continue to become less and less common.

For me, the heartbeat is the line in the sand. Maybe its being a parent that changed my mind? Who knows, but thats my line that I can stomach.

Luckily as a dude I will never have to make that line matter.

This is just not true. You make it matter purely by having an opinion on it. It will affect the way you vote, the way you talk to your friends and kids, affect the way they think about it or choose to react if faced with the situation.

Sure you think about your kids, but soon they'll be adults and potentially come to you for guidance on this subject. Will you base your guidance on their personal case, or just a heartbeat line?

Bonded · 05-17-2019, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducay

That might be so, but with proper education and access to contraception, I would hope abortions continue to become less and less common.

For me, the heartbeat is the line in the sand. Maybe its being a parent that changed my mind? Who knows, but thats my line that I can stomach.

Luckily as a dude I will never have to make that line matter.

So why not just outright call to ban it then. Don't hide it with a 'nice' story about heartbeats. I'd rather kids have a choice, so they don't try more dangerous solutions that will kill them.

Bunk · 05-17-2019, 04:14 PM

It’s impossible to stop all abortions, only safe and legal ones.

PsYcNeT · 05-17-2019, 04:22 PM

Yeah I don't get the heartbeat thing. Ultimately, brain function should be considered much more important.

zamler · 05-17-2019, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Yeah I don't get the heartbeat thing. Ultimately, brain function should be considered much more important.

Seeing there will never be an agreement when from conception to birth a human being comes into existence why not allow abortions at any point.

rubecube · 05-17-2019, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamler

Seeing there will never be an agreement when from conception to birth a human being comes into existence why not allow abortions at any point.

Because that's stupid?

PsYcNeT · 05-17-2019, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamler

Seeing there will never be an agreement when from conception to birth a human being comes into existence why not allow abortions at any point.

I still believe that it should be somewhere between 50% survivability with medically assisted viability (23/24 weeks) to 95% survivability (36 weeks). No limit on medical (baby or mother) if written off by a doctor.

Bonded · 05-17-2019, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Yeah I don't get the heartbeat thing. Ultimately, brain function should be considered much more important.

Marketing. People who don't look into it will think it sounds reasonable and they can tell themselves they are still pro-choice.

Ducay · 05-17-2019, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubecube

Okay but you realize the heart is just an organ, right? Like would you draw the line at the first sign of kidney function as well?

Well that's exactly it. The abortion debate is all about where you draw the line.

START ---> Sperm & Egg. Imagine most people are okay with anything here.

END ---> Live born baby. Imagine most people are not okay with abortions at this point.

So really, its an argument of where that line is drawn in fetal development. Heartbeat or early brain development are common lines. But its all a scientifically supported morality game.

Personally, for non-medically required abortions, I air on the side of life. Just because you made a silly decision doesn't mean that tiny fetus should die because of it.

zamler · 05-17-2019, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubecube

Because that's stupid?

Then tell us what is not stupid. When after conception is there a person.

rubecube · 05-17-2019, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducay

Well that's exactly it. The abortion debate is all about where you draw the line.

START ---> Sperm & Egg. Imagine most people are okay with anything here.

END ---> Live born baby. Imagine most people are not okay with abortions at this point.

So really, its an argument of where that line is drawn in fetal development. Heartbeat or early brain development are common lines. But its all a scientifically supported morality game.

Personally I air on the side of life.

Yeah, I'm just asking why you want to draw the line at heartbeat? What is it about a heartbeat that contains essential qualities of personhood that other organs/vital signs don't?

PsYcNeT · 05-17-2019, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamler

Then tell us what is not stupid. When after conception is there a person.

When it's likely not to immediately die outside the womb.

peter12 · 05-17-2019, 04:37 PM

How about nobody gets to draw a line around this issue and we allow women to make the decision for themselves without judgement in the privacy of a doctor's office?

rubecube · 05-17-2019, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamler

Then tell us what is not stupid. When after conception is there a person.

I think what Psycnet posted is a good start. Can the fetus survive on its own outside the mother's womb? I think it's also an argument that fails to grasp the realities of the situation. How many people find out they're pregnant and then wait months before finally deciding to have an abortion if it's not something that is medically-related?

peter12 · 05-17-2019, 04:40 PM

When I was a younger butthead, I used to pull out the "well, actually... just for the sake of argument" kind of BS on this issue. Then I realized I was being a pompous fool and there is very little room for argument or equivocation on this subject - especially as a man.

zamler · 05-17-2019, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

When it's likely not to immediately die outside the womb.

That's not definitive either, define immediate. I think you see where I'm going with this as I said a consensus will never happen. What will continue to happen is the issue will be a never ending political football.

peter12 · 05-17-2019, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamler

That's not definitive either, define immediate. I think you see where I'm going with this as I said a consensus will never happen. What will continue to happen is the issue will be a never ending political football.

Only in America. The vast majority of Canadians are happy with the fact that we don't have a law regulating this medical procedure.