[Rumour] Flames Considering Axing 'Forever a Flame'

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Give one good reason why. The only argument one can possibly give is because of his conduct after leaving the Flames which all stemmed from being sexually abused as a child. Things he has put behind him and more then made amends for with his helping thousands of people with coping with their own demons. So either your basis is you just don't like the guy or you think sexual abuse victims are garbage. Take your pick.

In my post I had a lengthy rant about his issues and addictions stemming form sexual abuse but deleted it as I couldn't stomach another fight about it.

thanks for mentioning it to again provide some context for how his life turned out.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

my number retirement criteria would be
1) in the hockey hall of fame.
2) played for the flames longer than any other team, with a minimum 5 years.
3) if not with flames in their absolute prime, should have a flames cup win on their resume.

That's MacInnis, Iginla (assuming HOF), Newy, Lanny, and arguably Mullen (he played 5 seasons with each of St. Louis, Calgary and Pittsburgh).

It's not Theo or Vernon (no HOF, though both should be).

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

So either your basis is you just don't like the guy or you think sexual abuse victims are garbage. Take your pick.

Well that seems reasonable.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

either your basis is you just don't like the guy or you think sexual abuse victims are garbage. Take your pick.

Really?

[SixtySix]

The Flames should have 5 retired numbers: 9, 2, 14, 12, 34

Lanny has earned it in large part for his off-ice contributions, the others are alone as the 4 best players (all in the same tier) that ever played for the organization (not including Jagr). Gio absolutely needs a cup to be elevated into this conversation. Also really sad to see so many Flames fans sleeping on Fleury in these threads.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That's MacInnis, Iginla (assuming HOF), Newy, Lanny, and arguably Mullen (he played 5 seasons with each of St. Louis, Calgary and Pittsburgh).

It's not Theo or Vernon (no HOF, though both should be).

I do agree with you that Theo and Vernon should be in the HHOF.
they do have the stats for it when compared with peers already in.

it's hard to know where to draw the line and how many players are too many to have retired for any one team.

so I threw out what me template would be if I were the boss.


I forgot about Mullen. to me he shouldn't be in the HHOF. he'd just be in the hall of very good. (got in partly because he's American, I think)

just a good player who played for a long time. if he fits in my criteria, mine could very well be too lenient.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

I forgot about Mullen. to me he shouldn't be in the HHOF. he'd just be in the hall of very good. (got in partly because he's American, I think)

just a good player who played for a long time. if he fits in my criteria, mine could very well be too lenient.

While Mullen's number shouldn't be retired (he was too long with other teams and won more cups with Pittsburgh) his numbers are as good as Lanny's, so if Lanny's in the HOF, Mullen should be as well. He was, in fact, a more consistent scorer than Lanny and IMO better defensively despite being small. He also has one playing award to his credit where Lanny has none (albeit a Byng).

And, yeah he was American and, in fact, the first one to 500 goals and 1000 points.

[dissentowner]

Nm

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Rando

Really?

Hmm, let's see. Accomplishments as a Flame. Perhaps the best, a SC, unreal numbers, multiple Gold medals for Canada, and the face of the franchise for years. So again, people against Fleury having his number retired either don't like the guy or don't understand or care about the terrible trauma this guy went through in junior. If you don't like the guy then fine, say it. If you think he is too blame for all of his actions AFTER leaving the Flames, then say it. Those are the only legit answers to arguing against him.

[calgaryred]

I'm a fan of McDonald MacInnis Nieuwendyk Fleury and Iginla being there. Vernon had 4 really good seasons as a Flame 86 88 89 90 is it enough to retire his number? The owners thought so, it's a shame they retired Fleury's number from circulation but not giving him a banner. I hope this is corrected if the forever flame crap ends.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[dissentowner]

Sorry if I went a bit offside there but I have had to see lives destroyed by sexual abuse and the aftermath and for the way a guy who was a hero to so many Flames fans turn his life around and help thousands of other victims and then be shunned by the Flames really pisses me off. The Flames should be embracing his work and what he has done

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Give one good reason why. The only argument one can possibly give is because of his conduct after leaving the Flames which all stemmed from being sexually abused as a child. Things he has put behind him and more then made amends for with his helping thousands of people with coping with their own demons. So either your basis is you just don't like the guy or you think sexual abuse victims are garbage. Take your pick.

Really those are the only two possibilities?
You are a big Fleury fan. Cool beans.
Not everyone feels the same way.
That doesn't mean they think "sexual abuse victims are garbage"
BRUTAL take.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Really those are the only two possibilities?
You are a big Fleury fan. Cool beans.
Not everyone feels the same way.
That doesn't mean they think "sexual abuse victims are garbage"
BRUTAL take.

That’s not what he said. I think it’s true that many people just don’t like Fleury and not that they think sexual abuse victims are garbage.

Isn’t it true that most people who don’t think Fleury deserves the honor do so because they don’t like him and how he has carried himself?

It has nothing to do with his being an abuse survivor.

At least that’s how I read his comments.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Really those are the only two possibilities?
You are a big Fleury fan. Cool beans.
Not everyone feels the same way.
That doesn't mean they think "sexual abuse victims are garbage"
BRUTAL take.

Great. So give another reason besides those two instead of doing a fly by. We already know you fall into the I hate Fleury fan club from your prior posts. So go ahead, give another legit reason Jiri why his number should not be up there.

[Yamer]

I like Fleury. He was my favorite Flame and player growing up. I was devastated when he was traded to Colorado. His numbers are unreal, and even before we knew of the atrocities he faced he was an inspiration to me and a lot of little hockey players and Flames fans.

As the face of the Flames he led them absolutely no where. He was traded away unceremoniously, slagged the Flames organization for years, has tendencies of egomania, and certainly wasn't the kind of role model you wanted your kids to emulate off the ice during his playing years (even though we understand the immense demons he was battling every single day).

I say this all as a guy that still admires and respects Theo, and grew up idolizing him. There are a number of reasons to argue against his jersey retirement, and they have been addressed ad nauseam on this forum every time the subject comes up.

So to act like it boils down to disregarding the abuse he experienced or personal vendettas is to be willfully ignorant.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Yamer

I like Fleury. He was my favorite Flame and player growing up. I was devastated when he was traded to Colorado. His numbers are unreal, and even before we knew of the atrocities he faced he was an inspiration to me and a lot of little hockey players and Flames fans.

As the face of the Flames he led them absolutely no where. He was traded away unceremoniously, slagged the Flames organization for years, has tendencies of egomania, and certainly wasn't the kind of role model you wanted your kids to emulate off the ice during his playing years (even though we understand the immense demons he was battling every single day).

I say this all as a guy that still admires and respects Theo, and grew up idolizing him. There are a number of reasons to argue against his jersey retirement, and they have been addressed ad nauseam on this forum every time the subject comes up.

So to act like it boils down to disregarding the abuse he experienced or personal vendettas is to be willfully ignorant.

This myth again? Besides saying he should have made the Flames on his comeback bid please show me proof he "slagged the Flames organization for years". Good luck. The only reason you could come up with is his actions after leaving the organization that budded from the abuse he suffered from James. He has since more than made amends for his actions by helping thousands by speaking out. So again, taking away the reasons of either just not personally liking the guy or thinking he should not be there for things he did after leaving the organization while battling demons he has more than atoned for give me one legit reason not to retire 14 given all he did on the ice for the Flames? Not that I feel this way but this is kind of like saying 12 should have never been retired for the way he left the team, forcing the Flames to take a different package then the one agreed to with Boston at the last minute, and then reportedly having no interest in ever joining the organization again after he left. That would be ridiculous and lame.

[Hanna Sniper]

I loved Fleury, funny how if you don't agree with someone you are painted in a negative light to fill whatever made up scenario to justify only their opinion.

There is a reason why when such honours are laid out to players that the first people they thank are the owners and do so by name. At the end of the day, these are the ones that sign their checks and give the player the platform to play the game and be heroes to many of us fans.

You don't bite the hand that feeds you, at the end of the day they have the power to dictate how your legacy will be remembered. The owners gave Fleury a chance to go out in the sunset as a hero and he made the choice to stick it back to them.

I love Theo and would love nothing more than to see a player the bleed the Calgary Flames colours be honoured is such a tribute but he made the bed he laid in.

But I respect the owners when it comes to this. Fleury has no one to blame but himself and the fact that the organization has put a hold on his number, it would suggest to me that the owners have not closed the door on him.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

I loved Fleury, funny how if you don't agree with someone you are painted in a negative light to fill whatever made up scenario to justify only their opinion.

There is a reason why when such honours are laid out to players that the first people they thank are the owners and do so by name. At the end of the day, these are the ones that sign their checks and give the player the platform to play the game and be heroes to many of us fans.

You don't bite the hand that feeds you, at the end of the day they have the power to dictate how your legacy will be remembered. The owners gave Fleury a chance to go out in the sunset as a hero and he made the choice to stick it back to them.

I love Theo and would love nothing more than to see a player the bleed the Calgary Flames colours be honoured is such a tribute but he made the bed he laid in.

But I respect the owners when it comes to this. Fleury has no one to blame but himself and the fact that the organization has put a hold on his number, it would suggest to me that the owners have not closed the door on him.

So by your reasoning then the Montreal Canadiens should never have retired Roy's 33. Everything he accomplished on ice and for the team should not matter because he walked off the ice and said he had played his last game for Montreal. Am I right?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Great. So give another reason besides those two instead of doing a fly by. We already know you fall into the I hate Fleury fan club from your prior posts. So go ahead, give another legit reason Jiri why his number should not be up there.

He doesn’t deserve it. His resume isn’t unimpressive but it doesn’t blow me away either.

He leads the Flames in one semi-relevant category, SHG. Iggy leads almost every category and by a fair margin. Fleury’s stats are more comparable with MacInnis.

He may not even get elected to the HHOF.

Al MacInnis was a better overall player and a better Flame.

[ikaris]

Don’t agree with the comments about not having Vernon retired. The guy was the second best goaltender the flames had. He also won the cup here, is a Calgarian, and had a fantastic career here and elsewhere.